Posts by Wonderment

96

The New World Translation Quote from an Elder

by howdidtihappen in

you've probably heard this before, but at a meeting last night the elder called the nwt the "rolls royce" of bibles.

i'm new to the jw bs (and as soon as i can break away, will do so.

) but do they also believe they have a superior bible to anyone elses outside the religion?

Wonderment

Atlantis said after providing the link in a former post: "Dr. Julius R. Mantey said all that needed to be said!"

Dr. Julius R. Mantey has provided for us a very useful Greek Grammar. It is one of my favorites. Unfortunately, though still in use today, it has been largely replaced by other recent Grammars. It is a model of simplicity, brevity, and rounds up what others before him said on the subject of grammar in a way the layman could understand. I really like it, and recommend it.

However, as a religious person Julius Mantey was like many Witnesses, stuck in a specific mindset. He wasn't flexible. It was either Day or Night, Black or White, Evangelical or Hell for anyone not holding on to mainstream tradition. Both of these men were professors of New Testament Interpretation (Baptist Theological Seminaries, one in Texas and the other in Chicago) One of these men (Julius) got together with "Cult Expert" Walter Martin (another Baptist) and both determined that JWs were a threat to standard religion. They went on to produce the greatest denunciation published in the last 60 years or so. There is no record of H.E. Dana following in their footsteps, at least to the same degree of intent.

Most of the WT criticisms published today and directed at the WT have been taken from their book... of disparaging and belittling the WT organization at all costs. A lot of other anti-WTS books are a rehash of their statements. The problem is that a lot of their statements are wrong, or off the mark. They are guilty of the same thing they accuse the WT of... of quoting out of context, not providing the full picture, and distorting anything they could - to reach their goal of destruction. Their published info is a mixture of half-truths and bad will.

I am surprised at the number of takers of this info as reliable, just because these men hold college degrees. I am equally surprised at the number of JWs who day after day insist that their religion is the way to God, while leaving Christ at the curb (roadside), while the "faithful and discreet slave," yes, a "slave" who gets more glory and honor than Christ. Repulsive indeed!

If I am permitted, I may point out some of these distortions in time. For now, let me just state that Julius R. Mantey writing a letter of repudiation to the WTS, and claiming they have been endlessly misquoted, does not prove he was right. I have examined the evidence, and I have concluded that Mantey was only partially right... that the WT was not explicit in their quote of their publication. "Misleading"? Even that is arguable. The WT Society did not misquote their work, but they did not disclose that their interpretation was one that would be unwelcomed by Protestant evangelicals. The WTS hinted that this Grammar was on their side, when that was not the case. I am confident that some will argue with my conclusion, but Dana and Mantey produced material that made clear one thing. That John 1:1 should be translated in a way that brings out the character or quality of the Word, Jesus Christ, that is... "the word was deity, not all of God."

115

Frederick Franz, "Bible Scholar"

by Quendi in

as some of you know by now, i spent sunday, 7 august, renewing ties with a dear friend.

we're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and i am not.

we got into some very spirited discussions on different bible topics and one of them was the value of the new world translation itself.

Wonderment

I agree that Fred Franz was somewhat "weird" in his theologies. He is probably the one to blame for leading a pack of gullible followers, including myself in the past, for placing trust in men who decide for God when Armageddon should be.

Fred Franz stated in Australia after the 1975 fiasco: "I made an ass of myself." I could not have said it better.

I am glad we can see his faulty theology better now, but I don't think Fred produced a bad translation. I do like it very much. The NWT has many faults, but it also has many virtues.

96

The New World Translation Quote from an Elder

by howdidtihappen in

you've probably heard this before, but at a meeting last night the elder called the nwt the "rolls royce" of bibles.

i'm new to the jw bs (and as soon as i can break away, will do so.

) but do they also believe they have a superior bible to anyone elses outside the religion?

Wonderment

Atlantis:

I have been numerous times to this site as a reference source of opinions. Though the site has some value, the problem with this one, as is true of other similar sites, is that it distorts many facts.

The author is bent on portraying the NWT as a piece of crap, one that has no support of scholars, and that the WT has quoted them all wrong, which is not true. A common mistake is one of belittling the scholars who say something positive of the NWT. They leave many gaps, and add material unrelated to the context. If you think the WT has this problem, it is worse with the authors of these tendentious websites.

I make an effort to check these references, and I am appaled by the dishonesty of some of these comments. It is not easy to find neutral sources, I admit. We are all victims of human bias to some extent.

A case in point is the commentary on Jason BeDuhn mentioned earlier. He says of BeDuhn: "This is not to say that BeDuhn is to be dismissed lightly. He is certainly knowledgeable in Greek, and says that he is doing work on untranslated Greek texts." Then he goes on to take issue of BeDuhn saying that he is a "non-theologian." He questions BeDuhn's statement about not knowing Murray J. Harris, another scholar, as if that was necessary to make an asessment of the NWT. BeDuhn has stated he is aware of those scholars attacking the NWT, including Harris. The author of the site again takes issue of the word "divine" as used by BeDuhn.

The thing is, that BeDuhn's book is one of the clearest expositions on the subject of bible versions available, and the author doesn't like BeDuhn's conclusions. His work on the subject, is in my opinion superior to other books before him. But, somehow he finds it necessary to downplay his contribution to the scholarly community.

The same can be said of his assesment of German scholars cited by the WT. The fact is those German scholars are known the world over in academia, because their names appear in reference books used by Catholics and Protestants alike.

For example, look at the names of contributors to the highly respected work, The New International of New Testament Theology (3 Vols.), and other German bible works. You will find names in them such as Johannes Schneider, Hans-Jurgen Becker, Siegfried Schulz and many others. The same can be said of the German Greek-English Lexicon of Walter Bauer, translated into English by Arndt and Gingrich and revised by Frederick Danker. I would not try to belittle those German authors just to prove the WT is wrong. Why? Simply because, no one seems to bother to attack their personal views or flaws when they agree with their religious agenda.

Another example: "Dr. Danker's estimation that the NWT Old Testament should not be "snubbed" is not shared by other scholars. H. H. Rowley, an eminent Old Testament scholar from England, wrote regarding the first volume of the New World Translation Of The Hebrew Scriptures."

Unbelievable! The author of this site claims H.H. Rowley is "eminent." Yet, he downplays Dr. Frederick W. Danker who also is "eminent," only because Danker said ‘the NWT should not be snubbed.’ See above for the contribution he made to the Greek-English Lexicon most used today in academia. Besides, he proudly quotes Rowley who attacks the NWT language, when Rowley was criticizing literal translations as a whole, placing the NWT as a shining example of wooden literalism.

We need to be careful before we used these authorities out of context. Anyone with dubious intent can summarize faults out of every scholar out there at whim.

The WTS has problems. We all agree with that. Everyone else is trying to determine "truth" within their limited abilities.

Frederick W. Danker well said: The 'orthodox' do not possess all the truth, yet one does well 'to test the spirits.' (Multipurpose Tools for Bible Study, 1993. Augsburg Fortress, Minneapolis, MN, p. 194)

115

Frederick Franz, "Bible Scholar"

by Quendi in

as some of you know by now, i spent sunday, 7 august, renewing ties with a dear friend.

we're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and i am not.

we got into some very spirited discussions on different bible topics and one of them was the value of the new world translation itself.

Wonderment

jookbeard said:

I've always found it strange that Fred "frequenter of male saunas in New York" Franz receives so much adulation and is revered in this almost superstar status because he could recite scripture and public talks by memory , big deal"

I heard Fred Franz was an advocate of body cleansing by saunas and by starting the day with two glasses of warm water before his daily walk.

Some may object to F. Franz receiving adulation, but the truth is he has received far more criticism than adulation. And to this day he gets criticism, not only from, ex-JWs, but also, from mostly evangelicals at that.

And really, how many of Frederick Franz's critics get to get a mention of honor in the The New York Times (such as Fred did on December 24, 1992) when the paper described Frederick Franz as "a religious Leader....[of] a Christian denomination" and "a biblical scholar...versed in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek."

So even if we don't agree with the figure of Fred Franz, recognition of his abilities in the midst of denial and criticism is welcomed in the name of fairness.

115

Frederick Franz, "Bible Scholar"

by Quendi in

as some of you know by now, i spent sunday, 7 august, renewing ties with a dear friend.

we're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and i am not.

we got into some very spirited discussions on different bible topics and one of them was the value of the new world translation itself.

Wonderment

designs: What exactly do you mean by ""Remedial English? And to whom is this directed at?

96

The New World Translation Quote from an Elder

by howdidtihappen in

you've probably heard this before, but at a meeting last night the elder called the nwt the "rolls royce" of bibles.

i'm new to the jw bs (and as soon as i can break away, will do so.

) but do they also believe they have a superior bible to anyone elses outside the religion?

Wonderment

NVR2L8: Thank you for your kind comments.

96

The New World Translation Quote from an Elder

by howdidtihappen in

you've probably heard this before, but at a meeting last night the elder called the nwt the "rolls royce" of bibles.

i'm new to the jw bs (and as soon as i can break away, will do so.

) but do they also believe they have a superior bible to anyone elses outside the religion?

Wonderment

Pams girl said: "If the NWT is the Rolls Royce of Bibles, why oh why are they using multiple quotes in the Awake and WT from other bibles?"

Because it adds variety to the material expounded. Also, it is used to let others know that other bible versions express it in a way that the writer wants to focus on. As to the comment of the elder saying that the NWT is the Rolls Royce of Bibles, I would say that is a meaningless statement. Bible versions are a matter of choice, and all bible translations fail in some way at their task.

115

Frederick Franz, "Bible Scholar"

by Quendi in

as some of you know by now, i spent sunday, 7 august, renewing ties with a dear friend.

we're both disfellowshipped, the difference between us being he is seeking reinstatement and i am not.

we got into some very spirited discussions on different bible topics and one of them was the value of the new world translation itself.

Wonderment

OUTLAW: Oops! Sorry about attributing the fonts observation to Terry, when it was OUTLAW the contributor. I stand corrected.

96

The New World Translation Quote from an Elder

by howdidtihappen in

you've probably heard this before, but at a meeting last night the elder called the nwt the "rolls royce" of bibles.

i'm new to the jw bs (and as soon as i can break away, will do so.

) but do they also believe they have a superior bible to anyone elses outside the religion?

Wonderment

Atlantis: The NWT Large Print Online edition of 2010 shows the brackets:

"16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist..."

All bible translators make changes to the text according to their beliefs, not just the NWT translators. For a consideration of whether "other" at Col 1:15-17 violates translation principles, see Jason BeDuhn's explanation of it in his book. At least, is another viewpoint to consider.

96

The New World Translation Quote from an Elder

by howdidtihappen in

you've probably heard this before, but at a meeting last night the elder called the nwt the "rolls royce" of bibles.

i'm new to the jw bs (and as soon as i can break away, will do so.

) but do they also believe they have a superior bible to anyone elses outside the religion?

Wonderment

sulla said: "A fellow named Jason BeDuhn wrote a small book outside his expertise a few years ago that claimed the NWT was the most unbiased translation out there. The Dubs really get geeked up over that, but his opinion is shared by nobody else with any qualification. To be honest, it isn't clear he is really qualified to hold that opinion; and suggesting that the 300 cases where the JWs insert "Jehovah" into the NT is not a profound bias is inexplicable."

Jason BeDuhn is Associate Professor of Religious Studies, and Chair Department of Humanities, Arts, and Religion, at Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff. He holds a B.A. in Religious Studies from the University of Illinois, Urbana, an M.T.S. in New Testament and Christian Origins form Harvard Divinity School, and a Ph.D. in Comparative Study of Religions form Indiana University, Bloomington.

By the way, Dr BeDuhn has taught Greek for years. He has the necessary qualifications to express his viewpoint. Can you best that?

He did take the NWT translators to task for incorporating the divine name in the NT. I have read the book, I am not quoting someone else.