Posts by lovelylil2

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

lovelylil2

AGuest,

Thank you for that information. I need time to digest it but appreciate it.

Robyn,

Many opologies to you.........I misunderstood what your were saying. I agree with you. Lilly

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

We are both in agreement that some natural Jews will still be brought into the convenant with Jesus as per Romans 11 and that this will not happen on the basis of the old covenant. Sorry I did not make myself clear on that.

What I mean by you cannot tell religious practicing Jews they are not in the Mosaic law convenant with God is that as a nation they never accepted the Covenant of Grace so to them they feel they are still under the law. While you certainly can tell them in words the law convenant is obsolete, they still will not accept it. To accept it, they need to accept Christ as thier messiah. Since they do not, the only convenant that exists "in their minds" is that of Moses. Again, I am speaking of religous practicing jews only, not secular ones.

Hope this clears that up. Lilly

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

lovelylil2

Robyn,

I was speaking about religious practicing jews. I think you are speaking more from the point of view of a non practicing Jew. You are Jewish by hertiage only?

I happen to know several Jewish Rabbis in my area and also attended a class the local synogogue had for Christians to better understand the Jewish faith and and you are correct in some ways some of the Torah is not to be taken literally. But I was taught the Jews do in fact believe Abraham, Isaac, Jacab, etc existed and believed Moses was a great prophet of God. Maybe since you are not a practicing Jew you really cannot say what most Jews believe? I do not know I am just asking.

I learned a lot as a Christian by reading the Torah. The Jews do not have their bible put together like we Christians put together the Hebrew Scriptures. What we call the "old testament", (sorry if this offends my Jewish friends), and they put books like Proverbs and JOB under "wisdom" books. JOB was not an actually person but the book of JOB represents the constant struggle for man to do good while under life's stress and even though he is tempted away from God. This book has other meanings as well. Yes, JOB is a metaphor. Also the book of Psalms are not to be taken literally, they are old prayers and songs to God. However, all of the bible even though written in metaphors or containing prayers, etc teaches some kind of LITERAL truth. That is so in the Hebrew scriptures as well as the Christian Greek ones. That is what the riches are in it and why the scriptures are called a "great pearl of wisdom". When you do not interpret the bible with a narrow view, you get the greater meaning of the texts.

Again, I am not trying to tell you what every Jew believes but I certainly know many who are not completely secular, though many are today, and some Jews do believe that the Bible "characters" in the Torah are real and the histories are real and the prophecies are real. I know because I speak with them every day. And because the Local temple here teaches that this is true.

And as far as being "secular", we can say that about most Christians today too. May claim belief in God but yet prove it false by their actions.

Peace, Lilly

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

lovelylil2

Doug,

the covenant of grace was first offerred to the Jewish nation. Remember that Jesus did not go to the gentile people at all. (people of the nations). He went to the lost sheep of Israel first to tell them to repent and turn back to God, Only after christ's resurrection was the invitation to enter the covenant of grace offered to non Jews. See Matthew 28:19,20 and Acts Chapter 10.

Please do not think I personally am saying that the covenant of Grace is better than the Mosaic Law covenant, I was repeating what the Apostle Paul was saying "God saw something better for us", meaning a new covenant based on faith in Christ by Grace and not by observance to laws or works. Again, I am only bringing out what the Christian scriptures teach. For the natural Jews at that time who did accept Christ and enter this covenant, the Mosaic law decreased and eventually became absolete because "for them", Christ fulfilled the law.

I disagree on the interpretation of Jeremiah 11. I firmly believe that jeremiah was fortelling the New convenant arrangement made through faith in Christ. We believers in this covenant have had God's laws written upon our hearts by the power of the Holy Spirit. I think where you are in error is believeing that since Jeremiah was addressing the Jews that Gentiles would not be included in this "new covenant" that Jeremiah spoke about. But as already brought out, few Jews entered into it. And at the time of Jeremiah's writing he did not know yet that God would offer any invitation to people of the nations.

The scriptures I already cited show that Paul said the Jewish nation was first invited to a new covenant with God, one that was better than the Mosaic covenant because it was not contingent on following every letter of law and that most declined this offer because of lack of faith and rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. Then non Jews were given the same invitation to come into a convenant with God thru Jesus and they responded abundantly. Thus Jeremiah was fulfilled and continues to be fulfilled today.

As for most of the Natural Jews today, they continue to live under law. Peace, Lilly

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

lovelylil2

This thread is becoming too much of a Christian against Jew thread.

Some of my points were misunderstood.

The Jewish Nation today still lives under the law convenant. This is because they do not accept Jesus Christ and thus did not enter into the covenant of Grace with him. So we simply cannot tell them they are no longer under the law covenant. No other covenant exists to them.

"We" Christian believers ARE the ones in the covenant referred to the covenant of Grace or the "new" covenant. This covenant is different than the one made thru Moses because now God's law is written in our hearts and we live by principles and not laws. This is the new covenant professied about by Jeremiah, chapter 11.

The invitation into this covenant was first offered to the natural Jews. That is why even Jesus did not deal much with the Gentiles. The Gentile invitation was not made until later when most of Isreal rejected this new arrangement.

Our Christian scriptures also teach that although most of Isreal refused to enter this covenant of Grace, God did NOT totally forsake them as one poster on this thread said he did and in fact we are dmonished as Christian believers to show humility when dealing with Natural Jews because God still has a plan for them. Read Romans chapter 11.

I think I will speak more about this with Robyn off this thread. I don't like the negative spirit developing here. Peace to all, Lilly

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

lovelylil2

About Jeremiah 31. This is the longest OT verse quoted in our NT found in the book of Hebrews chapter 8.

Christian interpretation of this covenant to come (Jeremiah 31) is that it was referring to the new Covenant believers entered into with Christ. This covenant marked the beginning of something new for God's people. A new relationship with God, one based on his laws becoming inner principles for the believer, written on thier hearts, instead of written in outer laws. God's people would also now have sinful ignorance of God removed from them and have everlasting assurance of forgivenes of our sins. No more annual sacrifices would be needed as under the old convenant. For believers our High Priest Jesus Christ paid our ranson to redeem us forever. This sacrifice of jesus is what removed the veil between God and Men. Now we can approach God directly thru Christ.

The NT states that because of the New covenant the old Covenant would become absolete meaning it would soon disappear. See Hebrews 8:13. This is not the same as saying the old covenant was completey made null and void. Any promises God made specifically to the nation of Isreal either were fulfilled or will be fulfilled as God does not go back on his promises. See Isaiah 55:11.

For Christians Christ fulfilled the law but did not obolish the law. We are simply under a different arrangement. Again, God did not renege on any promises to Isreal. Lilly

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

lovelylil2

Robdar,

Thank you for your response. I agree that many Christians take the bible too literally. for example did Eve actually eat a piece of literal fruit from a tree of knowlege in a garden? Probably not. But this story of the fall of man is there to show that we are alienated from God. The fruit and tree and knowledge of good and evil all have greater meanings than the literal interpretation.

Another example of being too literal is the 6 creation day theory. That simply does not jive with evolution which we know to be a very sound theory. We know the earth much older than a few thousand years etc. I personally have no problems with believing in evolution and a God, to me evolution is simply the means that God used to bring the earth and everything in it into exisitance.

I find when we Christians take things too literal we look stupid and we alienate people of different views and religious beliefs.

I agree with many other points you made as well. I agree babies are innocent at birth but do to the "nature" of Man, we all eventually sin. Even the early jews understood this and performed animal sacrifices to make atonement for thier sins. If I am correct, they did this soon after a baby was born so they must have acknowledge that eventually that baby would sin because of his nature?

This "nature" is what we Christians call the "fallen nature" hence the term "fall of man". How the particulars of this fall, which is simply an alienation from God took place, no one can know for sure. for as you said the "story" of this fall in Genesis is symbolic and the details of it are not to be taken as literal. The important point of it, which we both as a Christian and Jew agree with is that man at this time is alienated from God.

I think as far as Jews and Christians the bible (old testament specifically) is a matter of cultural perspective on one hand and we translate it according to our own belief systems. But I do thank you for respsonding to me because I do like to get the Jewish view. If more Christians would take the time to understand the Jewish thought on matters they will come to a more broadened understanding of the OT. I would suggest they purchase a copy of the Tanakh and read it and learn why it is arranged the way it is and which books are literal and which are not. It will be trully eye opening and change the way they view their own Christian faith.

Anyway, thanks again. Sorry for hijacking the thread off topic a little. Please pm me your email addy and we can "talk" some more about this.

RR,

hmmm, I don't see where I used the word "trinity" in my post? But I agree not to discuss the trinity here in full detail because it is already being done on another thread. And frankly has been beat to death on this forum anyway.

I understood this topic to be about Jesus and whether his "life" was just equal to or greater than that of Adams, in relation to the ransom price paid.

Lilly

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

lovelylil2

Robdar,

I have a copy of the Torah even though I am Christian. I am interested in Jewish thought. Not to hijack this thread but I always believed that the book we call Genesis (the first book of Torah) is viewed by Jews to be a historical book regarding God's creation and the early history of the Jewish people.

Are you saying that you (as a Jew) do not accept the book of Genesis at all, or are you saying we as Christians are taking this account out of context or too literal? Especially in relation to Adam and Eve?

I've heard two different views on the Adam and Eve account from Christians. One is that Adam and Eve were representative of mankind (Adam literally translated "mankind") and not literally a first man and women. And the other is the opposite view that they were two literal people.

I am sincerly interested in your answer to this. Are you in agreement with either of the two Christians views or niether and why?

Also, if Jews do not believe in original sin, what is the purpose of the Messiah coming to them?

I have to go off to work now but will re-join this thread sometime tomarrow. Lilly

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

lovelylil2

Thanks for the link Jonathan, I am going to save it to read later.

I was trying to keep it relatively simple on this thread so others can join the discussion too and add some more detail.

I almost didn't post but I found this topic of great interest. This is my first post on this site in about a year now. So thanks for bringing me out of "semi- retirement", hee, hee

Lilly

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

lovelylil2

Jonathan and others;

The teaching of JW's and Bible Students that Jesus was just a perfect man is in error and this error started way back in the days of charles Russell.I will try to clear it up the best I can and as simply as possible;

Russell's view was that Since ADAM was a perfect man and thru his trangression sin and death entered into the world, that the ransom price to be paid for our redemption had to be paid by another perfect man. Thus Christ's life could not have been worth more than Adams.

This is a fatal assumption on his part;

while the price paid had to be AT LEAST equal to the worth of ADAMS life, nowhere does scripture say that The ranson paid could not worth MORE than the life of Adam (a perfect man)

Russell loved to assume things when the answer to him was not clear in scripture. Lets clear it up.

Our Lord Jesus' life as the DIVINE SON of God and the incarnation of GOD himself (emmanuel, meaning "God With Us") was worth far more than that of just one perfect man. That is why the bible says that the price paid by Christ's death was far exceeding what was lost by Adam.

The scriptures are clear that The Ransom paid was NOT LIKE the Transgression at all and far exceeded the value of what was lost in Adam. The Bible calls the Ransom an ABUNDANT provision for this reason;

Romans chapter 5;

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So again, Christ's life had to be at least equal to Adams which it was but according to scripture since the ransom was NOT LIKE the transgression, the ransom was paid in abundance with a life worth far more in value than what was originally lost.

Ask yourself this; Could anyone less than a God really redeem the entire world?

There are too many scriptures to refute Jesus being ONLY a perfect man like Adam but I do not want to hijack this thread for that purpose. Hope this information helps, in Christ Lilly