Simon:
The trouble with Syria is that it's unclear exactly who's side we should be on, who we should be fighting against and why.
Suggestion:
We could also go with the torturers and the warcriminals...
Posts by bohm
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
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bohm
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
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bohm
LUHE:
in arriving at your views, have you read anything on this topic from official sources - not much. So?
Well, yet you know exactly what is happening and what should be done...
Your talking points are not well aligned with the facts but do align with the pro-kremlin misinformation about Syria. I would simply invite you to read reports on what is happening but here is a brief summary:
Syria has 4 major factions: Assad, ISIS, Islamic rebels and Western rebels (Kurds, etc.).
The western oriented rebels were backed by an international alliance spearheaded by USA; they are the best we come to "good guys" in Syria.
In 2015 Putin announced(!) the war in Syria was between ISIS and Assad and things were going really badly (in reality, it was going badly for Assad, less badly for the rebels who were fighting ISIS), and now it was time for an international alliance to form and defeat ISIS.
So he joined efforts with the international alliance and began bombing ISIS. Nah. Just kidding.He began to bomb the shit out of the internationally backed rebels and other enemies of Assad under the pretext he was bombing ISIS. That was only in a few cases true as was confirmed by comparing claimed ISIS targets with what was actually bombed.
In addition to military targets, hospitals, bakeries, water treatment plants, grain silos, mosques, and cities were bombed. Russian cluster munition was used in Syria (that's a warcrime) and images surfaced of Russian fighter planes with said cluster munition attached. Might be a total coincidence.
In 2016 Putin announced, "mission accomplished". At this point, the Russian campaign had been successful in weakening the western-backed rebels and helping Assad but had not weakened ISIS significantly. By hitting civilian targets (water treatment plants, hospitals, etc) and complicated the conflict it had deepened the humanitarian crisis and created more refugees.
During this campaign and after the following propaganda points were repeated again and again:
- The choice is between ISIS and Assad
- There is no meaningful alternative
- Putin intervened because nothing was being done
- Putin has only aimed at ISIS/terrorist targets
- Putin has not used cluster munition
- Putin's bombing campaign significantly weakened ISIS
I invite you to read about the conflict before you repeat the above points.
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
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bohm
Simon: So you just admitted that it would be a completely different scenario
Why did I just admit that?
Crimea had a fairly large Russian population, Georgia did not.
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
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bohm
There are hardly any pro-West, secular fighting forces in Syria.[12]
[12] Novarosk trollfarm 17 (2015)
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
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bohm
LUHE: Let's see how far we can agree. The west had one strategy in Syria, Russia had pre-existing strategic goals and pursued a strategy that opposed that of the US. Agree so far?
Your basic claim is that the US was wrong and Russia knew best, therefore we should follow Russias strategy?
in arriving at your views, have you read anything on this topic from official sources (thinktanks, academia, military)?
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
-
-
bohm
LUHE, you still haven't explained what the alliance with Russia would consist of...
Just to clarify: Russia intervene in Syria with a bombing campaign against the western-backed rebels with the goal of helping Assad, a pro-putin anti-democratic war criminal politically alligned with Iran and a terror organization. This campaign explicitly target civilians thereby deeping the humanitarian crisis.
your response: let's stand aside and let Assad wipe out the last pro-western anti-Islamic forces!
putins response: trollollollolol.
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
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bohm
LUHE: just as a small quiz re. Assad. Which Islamic regime and which Islamic terrorist organization is Assad aligned with?
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
-
-
bohm
Simon:
Are the majority of the populations Iranian?
Let's assume not, though in terms of international law I don't think this is the kind of thing that should give you the right to stage an invasion/occupation of little green men/whatever we call it.
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
-
-
bohm
The West can bomb terrorists in Iraq; Russia can bomb terrorists in Syria.
Can Russia also bomb hospitals? That's what they are doing.
The ones that refuse to accept the Syrian regime can be wiped out along with the various terrorist groups.
Great plan. Putin approves. Bombs and mass graves. Chechnya v. 2.0.
Then in the future Russia and allies can look into a softening of the Syrian regime or some kind of transition to secular democracy.
Now you are saying "allies", that is presumably by giving Putin Crimea and assume this will lead to a stable alliance; no past experience suggest this will be the case as the current situation has grown out of exactly seeking a stable alliance with Putin (you recall the various talks between NATO and Russia 2004-2014?).
Can you explain what interest Putin or Assad should have in a secular democracy in Syria? He is currently well under way to destroy the democratic institutions in Russia and is working on undermining two democratic government in two European countries; in addition to this we had invasions of two European countries in 7 years and ongoing attacks against infrastructure.
Let me ask like this: Suppose Iran attacked two European countries in 7 years, as in actual attacks where tanks roll in and land is taken. Would your response be: Let's work with Iran?
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491
What is your opinion of the news media?
by minimus into me they have an agenda and they really don't care about professional journalism.
most are untrustworthy and that's a shame.
-
-
bohm
Simon: I don't quite see the contradiction. My understanding is this:
- The mass immigration to Europe and other countries is currently creating a strain on the affected countries and is dominating the political discourse. Asides the obvious humanitarian ramifications, this instability is bad and something that (according to all analysis I have read) benefits Russias interests.
- In addition to this, the crisis in Syria has allowed Russia to obtain a close alignment with the Assad regime (the likely victor) and various strategic benefits (such as expanded regional military presence).
- The internal optics of Russia as a strong military presence who fix problems others won't touch is being used for internal propaganda purposes, even though Russias bombing campaign is pretty poorly organized and involves bombing civilians.
- This would mean that the immigration crisis is currently in Russias interests
- There is evidence Russia is aiding ISIS while fighting ISIS in Syria, for instance by letting ISIS sympathizers leave for Syria.
I don't see the contradiction. nobody on the left I know of claims the refugee crisis is good... if this is a widely held view I would like to see links.