Very sad. Very typical. Very much what I am not looking forward to.
Thanks for posting this. The author did a great job. I hope I can be as clear headed when the time comes.
Posts by VIII
-
12My Aunt's funeral at the Kingdom Hall
by Dogpatch ini couldn't resist posting this good story from cynthia hampton.
http://www.freeminds.org/sociology/women/my-aunt-s-funeral-at-the-kingdom-hall.html.
randy.
-
-
-
66
Gerrit Losch (take a look at his pic!)
by asilentone inhow does he keep up with his hairstyle daily?
shampoo?
( alots of hair in between!
-
-
VIII
The middle finger ring--easier for all the peeps at Bethel to see when he is flipping them off while sunbathing. In his speedo.
-
64
Did You Know A Lot Of "Very Intelligent" JWs?
by minimus inin my lifetime of knowing jehovah's witnesses, i recognized very few as being extremely intelligent.
most seemed to just go along with the program.. i noticed we have a number of "very intelligent" exjws here..
-
-
VIII
Since many that I knew/know are *born ins*, intelligence and JWs seems like an oxymoron.
When you are raised as a dub you are discouraged right from the start to think. You are discouraged to think about anything except Armageddon and Paradise. You are discouraged from education which only expands your mind and enhances someones natural abilities. Watchtowers, Awakes, going out in FS, going to the meetings, wearing the proper clothing, not associating with Bad Associationsl, not stumbling someone.
It all becomes too much.
When seemingly *intelligent* people join as adults, well, that is for the psychologists to figure out. There are numerous reasons. Here is a very interesting article from TIME magazine, circa 1979 on why people joined The People's Temple cult.
A cult is a cult. And, make no mistake, the WTBTS is a CULT.
If you are honest and look at people who have joined the JWs and The People's Temple, you can see similarities.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,912251,00.html
As to the main question: I don't think I knew any *Intelligent* JWs. Some were, seemingly, smarter than a 5th grader, however, they wouldn't win on Who wants to be a Millionaire.
-
14
Why do elders offer to "study" with witnesses?
by donuthole inhas anybody else ever experienced this?
when you get into a bit of trouble in the congregation or have certain questions/doubts over teachings and they want to study with you all over again?
you could have been a witness your whole life, know the bible teach/live forever/knowledge book front to back, even have studied with others and brought them into the religion - and the elder sitting across from you wants to know if a bible study would help you.
-
-
VIII
It's not only Elders. My Mom offers, week after week, month after month, year after year. I keep hearing that if only I'd take her up on her offer of a *Free in Home Bible Study* I'd see the Truth for what it Really is and Come Back to Jehovah.
Uh, NO.
I am not interested, nor is my never-a-JW-husband.
She thinks that the offer of a bible study and the mind numbingly dull material will entice me to go back to the Cult. Again, a resounding NO.
Once your brain is lifted out of the liquid, dipping it back into the Watchtower juice ain't gonna happen.
-
113
Should I walk away from my "underwater" home?
by The Berean inmillions are now facing the dilemma of making house payments on a property that is not worth what is being paid.
.
after originally promising to repay the bank, is there a "moral" obligation to continue in a dwelling, even at a loss ... or is it best to exercise the "legal" right of foreclosure and pay the consequences ?.
-
-
VIII
PS, not everyone bought their home without documentation. My loan was a prime loan. Good credit score, full documentation. And I'm upside down. I'm not walking away but others in my situation are. Because through the fault of the financial disaster caused by the banks, their homes are now under water
.Most people bought their homes with documentation. Unscrupulous mortgage lenders and loan officers were able to get those through on a minority of loans, but enough that it caused a ripple.
Being upside down is because of prices being ran up. I saw it in my own area. People were bidding on homes. Bidding wars were going on for homes, new and used. When prices get artifically inflated because people believe the price is going to keep going up and someone else will pay more for it, this happens.
The banks took a calculated risk in giving out the mortgage. If you are willing to say "Yes, I'm willing to pay $3000.00 per month for my mortgage, yes, I'm willing to sign the house over to you if I don't pay, etc., etc.," the bank will take the risk and give you or anyone who is credit worthy a loan.
There is money to be made for them either way. Whether or not you pay they win.
Don't you all see that? They win. It is all business to them. Busniess. It is not ethics. It is not morals. It is M-O-N-E-Y.
If you held individual stock in those banks, you would want them to be making as much money as possible so you could be making as much money as possible. It is business. It is money.
Money really does make the world go around.
-
113
Should I walk away from my "underwater" home?
by The Berean inmillions are now facing the dilemma of making house payments on a property that is not worth what is being paid.
.
after originally promising to repay the bank, is there a "moral" obligation to continue in a dwelling, even at a loss ... or is it best to exercise the "legal" right of foreclosure and pay the consequences ?.
-
-
VIII
Auto manufacturers are businesses. They have every right, in a capitalist society ... to make money by selling defective products. Unsuspecting consumers have no beef with them if they bought the car willingly. No one forced them....
Ummm, correct. And, when they sell a defective product, the Consumer Product Safety commission is on their butt, as well as the Federal Trade Commission. As well as the NTSB.
Next thing you know, that manufacturer will be out of business. I would hazard a guess that Toyota's sales will be down. Big time.
When a new car is driven off the lot, it's value goes down, on average, 28%. Why don't people just walk away from those loans routinely? That question still stands.
Yet, they find it acceptable to walk away from a home loan.
-
113
Should I walk away from my "underwater" home?
by The Berean inmillions are now facing the dilemma of making house payments on a property that is not worth what is being paid.
.
after originally promising to repay the bank, is there a "moral" obligation to continue in a dwelling, even at a loss ... or is it best to exercise the "legal" right of foreclosure and pay the consequences ?.
-
-
VIII
With your ethical model one can only guess you were an Elder.
As I noted above, if they are selling *defective products*, they should be held accountable by the very politicans who also got sweetheart deals. Why don't you call Senator Christopher Dodds office and ask when they will be do something about all the presumed fraud that has gone on?
Every news show from GMA to 60 Minutes has shown a down and out homeowner who we are to feel sorry for who admitted they took out a loan without documentation. But, they didn't understand that they didn't qualify for that $600,000 house!!! They, only making $30,000 as a janitor, just wanted to live like those people they see on TV. Why shouldn't they *Go for it*? So, when the loan officer presented them documents that showed their payment would be $500.00 a month they signed away. They, being unable to comprehend that the loan only would be $500.00 for 3 months, and would jump to $3000.00 wasn't covered at the closing. So they say. But, their signature is on the document showing it was covered at the closing.
These stories are rampant. Fraud? Obviously. There are numerous mortgage companies who made millions who are now under investigation and numerous people have gone to jail for mortgage fraud. As they should. Were banks involved? I'm sure their employees were.
The homeowner? They should be out of a home and their credit should be ruined simply for being stupid and greedy. Is that a crime? Of course not. But should there be a price for that stupidity? Yes. And they, and we, the taxpayers are paying it.
Are all bankers to be scorned for being bankers? I don't think so.
Bankers, and every employee that works at banks provide a necessary service and necessary product. If you don't like what they provide and don't like their service, shop somewhere else. Like the local pawn shop. You can get a loan from them. Or the local Pay Day service. I hear they have loans. For about 29%.
-
113
Should I walk away from my "underwater" home?
by The Berean inmillions are now facing the dilemma of making house payments on a property that is not worth what is being paid.
.
after originally promising to repay the bank, is there a "moral" obligation to continue in a dwelling, even at a loss ... or is it best to exercise the "legal" right of foreclosure and pay the consequences ?.
-
-
VIII
There seems to be a perverse need by some people in this thread to shield Consumers from financial responsibility for the risk they very willingly took by actively taking out loans they couldn't afford, didn't back up with documentation and now refuse to pay.
Banks are businesses. They have every right, in a capitalist society, which last time I checked, we still are, to make money.
Until Obama takes over the banking industry, they are free to sell their Products to consumers. You don't have to do business with them.
Go to the local loan shark for your next loan. Or credit card. See how forgiving he/she is when you can't make a payment on time.
-
113
Should I walk away from my "underwater" home?
by The Berean inmillions are now facing the dilemma of making house payments on a property that is not worth what is being paid.
.
after originally promising to repay the bank, is there a "moral" obligation to continue in a dwelling, even at a loss ... or is it best to exercise the "legal" right of foreclosure and pay the consequences ?.
-
-
VIII
Second of all, for many homeowners, it was a BUSINESS decision as well. So what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Ethics apply all the way around and you may not want to face the fact that many banks preyed upon consumers.
Bluesapphire, I didn't assume anything about you. I simply responded to your post. Read it a little more carefully, please.
As for this post, as you note, if purchasing a home is a BUSINESS decision that homeowners are making, then they are taking a calculated risk that businesses, large and small take everyday.
And, now, they are learning the hard way that there are consequences to those decisions.
If the banks preyed upon consumers, then the government entity which deals with that should be involved and should be holding their feet to the fire. Since Freddie and Fannie were also a part of it, it could get really ugly. I'm wondering why it's taking so long to happen. Maybe you do?
Ethics are important in business. However, they don't have much to do with simple bad decisions on a homeowners part. Those were calculated risks and they lost that bet. Kind of like picking a losing Lotto ticket. They bet that their home would continue to increase 28% every 6 months and lost. No market can sustain that growth. Only uninformed, uneducated, greedy people believe that.
-
113
Should I walk away from my "underwater" home?
by The Berean inmillions are now facing the dilemma of making house payments on a property that is not worth what is being paid.
.
after originally promising to repay the bank, is there a "moral" obligation to continue in a dwelling, even at a loss ... or is it best to exercise the "legal" right of foreclosure and pay the consequences ?.
-
-
VIII
The thing is that banks have not acted "ethically" toward the consumer. Now that the coin is flipping, they are getting back what they have dished out. It's a consequence.
*Someone* lends you money. Doesn't matter who. It could be a bookie, could be your neighbor, could be a friend, could be a big, bad guy whose henchman is named Bubba.
That *Someone* has a signed contract with *YOUR* signature stating that you will pay a certain percentage of interest for a certain number of months for the privledge of being lent that money. That contract is a legal, binding document that you are obligated to pay; unless you file bankruptcy (get a lawyer for that).
Because *You* don't have thousands of dollars saved up to purchase that item out of hand yourself. You've been purchasing big screen TVs, going on vacations you can't afford, paying for cable with HBO, buying your kid the latest greatest blue jeans and other gadgets your kid doesn't need. Now, as a result, you have to borrow money from whoever will lend it to you. Oh, and you purchased the item without doing your due diligence and paid top price for it. I mean, everyone was buying and you just had to have it, right? It seemed like a bargain. And it was sure to go up in value. Those things ALWAYS do. Right? Right.
If you don't pay that interest, plus a part of the principal you borrowed every month, that Someone has a right to seize the asset you signed on the contract for. Could be an auto, could be a diamond, could be a house. Works pretty much the same way for all of the above.
You decide you don't like politics or policies of that Someone and decide to Teach Them a Lesson.
So, you decide to default on the loan. The loan they own. The loan they have your signature on. The loan which feeds directly into the credit bureau's and will destroy your future chances to get credit from anyone else. At least for 5-7 years.
Oh, and they will seize the asset from you. Whether it be your car, your diamond or your home.
But, being the Brainiac you seem to be, you decide to roll the dice and say "F-them, I don't agree with the President of the US and his policy of bailing them out. I'm angry at the bank for accepting money they didn't ask for (and paid back with interest; all except Citibank--look it up), however, since I am so smart, I'm going to lose my asset over my anger at the System."
Yeah, real smart move.
BTW, banks aren't getting back anything. Except assets--and lots of income apparently. They are getting assets back that you paid for. You already paid for it, partly. Someone else will get it at a reduced rate. The bank only stands to win. Try to figure that one out. The bank only wins. Banks made record profits last year. Why do you think Goldman is paying it's CEO $100 million dollars this year as a bonus? Because they made bad decisions?
Banks are borrowing money at zero percent from the federal government and lending it to us (those of us whose credit isn't destroyed because we didn't walk away from our assets) at 5-8% depending on the asset. They are making lots of cash.
Do some research.
What they really ought to "ethically" do is take part of the loss on the homes that are under water. Then people would be less inclined to walk away
.B anks are a business. There is no business reason to take any loss for a bad decision a homeowner made. Who forced the homeowner to pick that home in that area at that price?
Did the realtor force you to purchase that home? Did the loan officer force you to take out that loan? Did someone hold a gun to your head and make you buy a house you couldn't afford and shouldn't have bought in the first place.
A resounding NO.
The bank has absolutely no reason to bailout the stupid decision a homeowner made on running up the purchase price of the home. If a home is underwater, that is terribly unfortunate. There are so many reasons for it. I just don't believe walking away from it is the answer. A car is underwater the moment you drive it off the lot. Do you walk away from it? Why not?