Pickled

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Posts by Pickled

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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

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  Pickled

  Yes, CoCo, I would like to hear more. Hello, Ms. McDucket, I would like to read your paragraphs as well! What brought you to this site? Are you a former JW, and why?
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

  ?

  1. 
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  Pickled

  CoCo, thank you for your thoughts about what I wrote. You said that your children have forgiven you. That must seem like such a gift to you that they did. You said that you found yourself drowning in the messages. What led up to that point? What journey did you take that went from dedicated to drowning? Was it gradual or was it one pivotal thing?
  
  As a side note, I know what “JW” stands for, but what does the “D” in “JWD” stand for?
  
  Happy you are wanting to share this. My experiences are not the same as those who became members and then were faced with an excruciating truth that did not match a perceived former truth. That particular pain is a long process. It is my hope that more former Witnesses can share more of who they were before the walls caved in. I think it could really help the many who are looking at this religion for the first time, and could possibly see themselves in those individuals who gave it all they had and came to the realization in genuine and unvarnished ways, that they were misled.
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

  ?

  1. 
  2. 
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  Pickled

  Thank you so much CoCo for sharing your thoughts. You know, in the middle of learning about this “arrangement” I happened to take a vacation, and decided to hike in the mountains. I had spent enough time around members of the WTBTS to have a clear sense of where everyone stands in terms of their relationship with one another; what it would normally and naturally be vs. their actual placement as determined by the Society.
  
  Parents, with complete forethought, were entirely willing to abandon the relationship they had with their children should they ever exhibit behavior not keeping with the terms established by a group of individuals in Brooklyn, NY. In an effort to avoid that scenario, a great deal of effort was focused on insuring that, at all times, their child was exhibiting behavior that matched those standards. It seemed to be acceptable if the public behavior shown by the child did not match at all their inner thoughts or emotional turmoil. As long as the outward behavior aligned itself with the expectations, the private thoughts, feelings, and struggles were of no significant consequence, and an unrelenting effort was made to simply bombard the child with messages from the Society until the child began to express a willingness to abandon their doubts. I considered the authenticity of this “loving arrangement”, and since Love, to me, expresses itself in a willingness to reach out to and understand the one you love, it seemed to be an entirely different definition.
  
  Husbands, within this “loving arrangement” seemed to view their wives as a kind of prop; someone who could be measured by her ability to appear “faithful” in terms of supporting her husband in all of his efforts on behalf of the Society. What surprised me the most was that even the husbands and wives, within their own relationship, imposed the same code on one another that they imposed on their children. A wife who expressed doubts or fears was viewed as subtracting from her husbands’ efforts to be a good Witness. The fact that she was not straying outside the marriage, supporting all of his dedication, teaching their children all of the doctrines and expectations, faithfully attending all of the meetings and participating in the door to door ministry, could all be regarded with suspicion, judgment, and frustration upon hearing anything less than total acceptance. Even within the confines of the marriage itself, the wife could easily find herself in a situation where her husband was confiding in Elders about his burdensome wife before any effort was made to actually understand her, or to draw her into a relationship with him that resembled a “loving arrangement.” I am sure that it sounds better to the WTBTS to say that the relationship between the husbands and wives is based on sound Biblical principles where everyone understands their status and is thrilled to be a part of such a “loving arrangement.” But what I observed was that there seemed to be a constant undercurrent of resentment from the wives directed at their husbands. So it seems reasonable to assume that it was based on something. If not this environment of betrayal where the husband would always place the group of men in N.Y. before his wife, then what?
  
  I also observed in their words, body language, glances, and defensive explanations, that very little value is placed on individuals who are not adhering to the doctrines of the WTBTS. It did not matter who they were or what their relationship would normally be with those individuals who happened to be parents, brothers, sisters, co-workers, or neighbors. I suppose it is a stretch to value those who are slated for destruction in the very near future. Like knowing it’s a bad investment ahead of time.
  
  While I was hiking in the mountains I saw an Elk with her young offspring. She sniffed and snorted in the air and every muscle in her body tensed as she looked at me. Her reaction caused her young calf to immediately run to her side in bewilderment and fear. The tiny calf knew where she needed to be in order to be safe. I am a human and the bible says that I have been given complete authority over all the animals on the earth. I was not there to hunt, but I am at the top of the food chain and made in the image of God and that should count for something. Amazingly, in her plum sized brain, she disregarded all of those facts and decided to lead her offspring as far away from me as possible, and quickly. She seemed to not trust my judgment at all and instead to rely on her own instinct for avoiding danger and distress. She seemed to believe that she alone possessed the ability to determine what kind of environment was best for her offspring; this tiny calf she gave birth to alone in the mountains. I stood there knowing that she was just an animal without an awareness of how “loving arrangements” work. She didn’t have a clue about Governing Bodies, Theocratic Arrangements, Service cards, Contribution Boxes, or Judicial Committees. Her “faithfulness” was manifested in her willingness to protect her creation, and her single minded focus on his life itself. She seemed to know in spite of her limitations that living, and not any authority I believed I had, was her highest priority.
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

  ?

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  Pickled

  Found that information at http://www.jwfacts.com
  
  Between 2003 and 2007....
  
  1,315,523 people were baptized.
  
  807,779 people left. 61% of the members left.
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

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  Pickled

  Based on the report that 2/3 left....how many people walked out the door, regardless of why, in 2007?
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

  ?

  1. 
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  3. 
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  Pickled

  Yes, that would create a dilemma.
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

  ?

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  Pickled

  Minimus, I find it interesting that Paul, while still Saul of Tarsus, made himself the self-appointed judge, jury, and executioner of Christians. He was a devout Pharisee, those known as “the separate ones” who kept their distance from social customs and rituals including marriage. His instructor in The Law had been a very well known and highly revered Rabbi, and Saul’s life was the extreme version of every belief the Pharisees embraced. Disregarding the very important Mosaic commandment to not murder, Saul incited others to carry out the deed. At the time of Stephens’ death, when those who killed him placed Stephens’ clothes at the feet of Saul, indicating that Saul was the one who was giving the authority and approval for this murder, Saul was not yet 30 years old. Saul was on a mission as an individual, to hunt down members of this new cult called “The Way.” This was not standard practice for a Pharisee, and seems to indicate that Saul viewed his behavior as more important in that it was an act of obedience that had the stamp of approval from Yahweh Himself; an idea that Paul later indicates in his writings.
  
  At some point during his murdering spree, the scriptures indicate that Saul was traveling on the road to Damascus. I find it interesting that not just any ordinary holy spirit filled Apostle would do in delivering a message to Saul. Considering the importance Saul placed on his own role in life as one who was separate and above all others, it makes sense that he writes that it was none other than Jesus of Nazareth himself that had a special message for him. What follows that special message is an event that looks very much like a psychological condition known as Hysterical Blindness that sometimes accompanies an extreme amount of psychological stress, or a mental snapping point. My intention is not to minimize or mock the Bible’s account of Saul’s conversion experience however it does raise a very important question…..
  
  The scriptures indicate that Jesus had the ability to discern or know the thoughts of those around him. If the bible account is true, then it seems likely that Jesus had even more of an ability to do that in spirit form after he ascended to the Father that he did while inhabiting a fleshly body. At the very least, his vantage point would have been broader. So if Jesus had the ability and the intention to confront Saul with the question about why he was persecuting the Christians…..why the delay? How many Christians needed to be executed before Jesus exercised his ability to put a stop to it?
  
  Saul was not a follower, and neither was Paul. Saul generated conflict and believed that his version of his belief system was a mandate from Yahweh. As the Apostle Paul, the conflicts continued. I also find it interesting that among the acts of miracles and special insight and power given to the Apostles via the holy spirit, one of the things that the holy spirit did not divulge was the fact that Saul had been converted. I think it was Barnabas who had to convince them of that and mediated on Paul’s behalf.
  
  Saul was a powerful, charismatic, and polarizing figure who interpreted the messages of his religious beliefs in an individualized and solitary way. It just seems that there is evidence that Paul did the same thing. Did Jewish laws give Saul the authority to say and do what he did? Did he go on to interpret the words of Jesus in the same way he handled his former interpretations of The Law? It is something to consider.
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

  ?

  1. 
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  Pickled

  Quietlyleaving, you wrote:
  “The point I was trying to make is that JWs focus very much on the writings attributed to Paul and on his example to fuel their zeal in the ministry. I realise at least that, that is what I did. In recognising that we 'victims participated in victimizing others' we have to acknowledge the huge part the apostle Paul played in the process through his interpretation of Jesus Christ (a light bulb moment for me)”
  
  “I guess we have to acknowledge that Paul (with the best intentions) had been a victimser before he became a christian and he continued to victimise after with as much zeal. Do his writings bring out the vicitmser in one? And if they do shouldn't we be careful to acknowledge that?”
  
  Thank you so much for responding to that question. I didn’t see your response because it was on another thread.
  
  I also had a tremendous light bulb moment about the same thing as well, so I am particularly interested in your thoughts about this. My light bulb moment occurred when I decided to take just the words of Jesus that were recorded and compare them with all the other writings in the New Testament. What stood out to me was just how little Jesus spoke about things that Paul went on to interpret in terms of structure, organization, and judgment. You are exactly right, in my opinion, about acknowledging the words of a man who also had his own interpretation of someone else’s message. I am still on a journey and this was one realization along the way that I am still pondering.
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

  ?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Pickled

  If you are reading this thread and you are currently studying with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, then you are no doubt on a search for the truth. You are probably also at a very low point in your life. You are likely searching, you are hungry for change, and you are having a hard time right now sorting through what you once knew and what you have been confronted with now.
  
  It is also safe to assume that you had enough doubts about what you are hearing to cause you to search for and find this website. If you are an honest and open person and you feel you have a good relationship with the Witness you are studying with, you have likely shared some of the things you have discovered online with him or her.
  
  Did you hear any of these responses?
  
  “Well, stop and consider this, (insert your name here)……..don’t you find it odd that none of them found anything wrong with Jehovah’s teachings until they were disfellowshipped?”
  
  “I understand what you are saying, and they do raise a good point about God being a God of love, and now that they have left Jehovah’s Organization they feel more freedom to be themselves. Then why all the anger? If they are so free now why do they continue to congregate together rehashing all the reasons why they left to be free?”
  
  “It sounds like the only thing they are preaching is a message against everything they once believed. Have you tried to stop and consider what they are FOR instead of what they only seem to be AGAINST? An anti-gospel is not a ministry.”
  
  “What truths or message are they offering you apart from how badly they believe they were treated while they were in Jehovah’s Organization?”
  
  “If you read those websites long enough you will find that their “freedom” consists of doing all the things that they felt they were prevented from doing while they were a part of Jehovah’s Organization. Why is it that all of those things include sins and none of those things include preaching the gospel in spite of their claims of understanding the bible in a more truthful way?”
  
  These are all very good questions, and they sound reasonable and logical. Is there any truth in those questions?
  
  Yes. Many of the people on these websites were content with being a Jehovah’s Witness until they were caught doing something that was considered a sin within the Organization, and then eventually were “disciplined” by being separated from the other members. The separation made them feel rejected, angry, and betrayed. They also knew ahead of time that there were behaviors that the Organization considered offenses worthy of being disfellowshipped, and they did them anyway and were still angry about the consequences.
  
  However, there are also some who were not disfellowshipped because of “wrong doing.” Some had their membership removed because they began to ask questions that made it appear to the leadership that they were a threat to the other members. Those questions included many of the questions you will find online as you read the various websites of former members.
  
  It is important that you become able to recognize those legitimate questions and look beyond the comments that offer you nothing helpful at all in your search.
  
  A third group among those who have been disfellowshipped are those who brought the abuse they suffered to the attention of those who should have acted in a protective role, but instead their abuse became a tool that was used against them. The fact that they were disfellowshipped as a result of being victimized makes their particular experience that much more egregious. As it is with victims of abuse in all religions, it is particularly painful to be abused by those who claim to represent God. Consider just how painful it is when the abuse occurs at the hands of those who claim to be the ONLY representatives of God on this earth; a claim that you believe throughout your abuse. Then, upon turning to those representatives for help and healing, you are met with accusations, denial, and a clear intention to protect the very one who caused you so much pain. Their experiences are very real and, in reading them, you can get an idea of a mindset that is prevalent within the Organization you are considering. This mindset is not entirely unique among all the various religions, but this happens to be the religion you are considering right now.
  
  Another category you will encounter, are those who are not committing any “offenses” and have not been disfellowshipped. They have simply come to the realization, through research and private questioning, that there are very significant contradictions, misstatements, and flat out lies in the information that they have been given and are expected to unquestionably follow. What they are experiencing is very painful because along with that realization is the inevitable fact that they will eventually have to make the decision to either remain a non-believing member, or lose all of their friends and family by leaving. It is important to understand that, according to the Jehovah’s Witnesses, anyone who is not a member of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society does not have a relationship with God, and will be destroyed by God eventually, and hopefully soon. The person you are studying with does not want to be in that category and holds in contempt anyone who, according to what they believe, has deliberately placed themselves in that category by disobeying Jehovah’s Organization. It is actually a mandate to the “faithful” to treat anyone who is in that category as though they are already destroyed. This is why they do not speak to them any longer and do not invite them to social events, even including a meal at any table. However, the former member is allowed to attend meetings, and the hope is that they will hear the truth in those meetings and return to God’s Organization once again and escape destruction.
  
  It is very important to keep in mind that your “study” partner is willing to reject and shun even their own children, their husband or wife, or their parents if any of them should ever decide to leave Jehovah’s Organization. This is important to note just in case you are starting to believe that the Witness helping you “study the Bible” places great value on you as a human being who is not yet a member of Jehovah’s Organization.
  
  As you try to answer the question of whether or not this really is that one true religion, it is an absolute necessity to learn to sort through the comments and information. Find and read literature that is logical and fact based. I would recommend starting with the book “Captives of a Concept” by Don Cameron. The reason why I would recommend that is because it addresses the very foundation of the religion you are considering. The entire belief system of the Jehovah’s Witnesses is based on the appointment of the “Faithful and Discrete Slave.” All of their information is produced by this same “Faithful and Discrete Slave.” All of their obedience and loyalty is to this “Faithful and Discrete Slave.” All of their literature indicates that you can only have a relationship with God THROUGH this “Faithful and Discrete Slave.” In his book, Don Cameron offers definitive, clear, and easy to read evidence of why they are in fact not qualified to be that “Faithful and Discrete Slave.” On this premise, all of their other doctrines rest. Keep searching. It is an important journey worthy of a thorough search.
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

  ?

  1. 
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  3. 
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  Pickled

  Undercover, I really liked your post. Very clear.