Posts by Dogpatch

375

The Governing Body intends to announce significant changes in academic literature (DOCTRINES) - Brazil

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

dear randall.

good morning!.

here is the daniel of brazil (former bethel).. this week at the forum of former jehovah's witnesses had an interesting news!

Dogpatch

THE TRUTHMOBILE!!!

Costs 50 cents to join:

Seems the cops are at least interested, and some cameraman...

Ahh, summer.

No wonder Sydlik used to call California the "seedbed of apostasy."

375

The Governing Body intends to announce significant changes in academic literature (DOCTRINES) - Brazil

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

dear randall.

good morning!.

here is the daniel of brazil (former bethel).. this week at the forum of former jehovah's witnesses had an interesting news!

That's fine but they need an apostasy fom their apostasy, like antimatter. Going mainstream Christian or even allowing dignity and freedom like the Bible Students would just be ignored. And has been for ther most part. You have to think outside the box. They are a 19th century carnival act. Antimatter on that? (no Higgs-boson jokes, please)

Actually you can get lost in the rhetoric.

JWs are a sect of a cult which is a cult of a sect.

Or is early Pharisaical Judaism the cult of Persian religion, and Christianity the sect, and the JWs the cult of a sect?

You could start a sect of a cult which is a cult of a sect! (Or something like that.)

Speaking of which,on another sudden development,

I JUST FOUND THE TRUTH!!

(outside, 40 meters away!)

picture upcoming.

Dogz

375

The Governing Body intends to announce significant changes in academic literature (DOCTRINES) - Brazil

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

dear randall.

good morning!.

here is the daniel of brazil (former bethel).. this week at the forum of former jehovah's witnesses had an interesting news!

Dogpatch

As 00DADDY sez,

Policy changes inspired by legal concerns are not techinically "Doctrine Changes", but they could certainly be presented to the flock as if they are.

For example, if they lose the Two Witness Rule in the case of pedophiles, then that could be presented as a "Doctrine Change", aka "Nu-Light TM from Jehovah!"

and credits to Cyberjesus for his comments.

You ALL KNOW this will have nothing to do with the Bible whatsoever. They don't give a RAT'S ASS about the Bible. They will simply be announcing ways to cover their butts and put all the burden on the poor elders. Same tactics for the last 3 years or so. Remember, this is a corporation. A corporation exists to preserve itself at all costs, in these cases. A few months ago, the sudden frantic rage was subliminally warning against upcoming anointed elders who will not put up with any more of ther CRAP, and to challenge their authority. Trying to be the collective "Grimer WORMTONGUE" (Lord of the Rings).

I say we start a THOUSAND SECTS of the WT to keep them awake at their jobs.

Any new religions and leaders that would be good breakoffs?

Now THAT would really freak them out.

Bastards.

375

The Governing Body intends to announce significant changes in academic literature (DOCTRINES) - Brazil

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

dear randall.

good morning!.

here is the daniel of brazil (former bethel).. this week at the forum of former jehovah's witnesses had an interesting news!

Dogpatch

Dear Randall Good morning !
Here is the Daniel of Brazil ( former Bethel ) .
This week at the Forum of former Jehovah's Witnesses had an interesting news ! http://extestemunhasdejeova.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10516&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=1110 This Mr. Roncalli Spinoza says and proves to be one of the Service Office . Have told several news that came to be confirmed . This week talked about future changes in the field of " doctrines " . Following is the translation:

Re: Zonal Superintendent will visit Brazil in January 2012
Mensagempor Roncalli Spinoza on 30 Jul 2012 12:10
Hello everybody.
NEWS:

The Governing Body intends to announce significant changes in academic literature (DOCTRINES).In preparation for this, provided one of the Kingdom Ministry School special elders prepare to accept and help others to accept the changes. In February of 2013, as letter to be sent to all bodies of elders, to the school will start. Will last only eight hours. This time, the Ministerial Servants may not participate. The EMR is usually held every four years. The last was in 2011. The importance of the changes is evident from the hasty establishment of the school for the year 2013. Soon I'll post more information about it.

Regards to all .Have you heard anything about this in the U.S.?
By the way , what's your view on the agreement in Bulgaria ?

Anyone heard more about this?

Randy

42

Judah Ben Schroeder NOT finishing law school

by Seeker4 in

a few weeks ago there were a couple of threads about the wts and higher education, and some stated that judah ben schroeder (son of the late governing body member al schroeder) was attending law school at columbia university.

i got an e-mail from a very reliable source today about some inaccuracies in those threads.

here are some quotes from the e-mail, which the writer asked me to share anonymously on jwd:

Dogpatch

I'm pretty sure Judah does not see eye-to-eye with the WT at all.

He was a kitchen waiter when I was there. :-))

Randy

20

V And Watchtower Comments

by KingDavidwasframed in

jw
friends

has any one heard what happened or if there will be more?.

Dogpatch

His site is still on my servers:

http://www.watchtowercomments.com

Haven't heard from him in a year - he just abandoned everything.

Randy

46

Does egyptian history conflict with bible history

by ninja_matty69 in

it is said to contain some 255 names if we start from column 2 row 11 (pharaoh menes).

we could ignore its omission of chaires and later cheneris mentioned by manetho as this is probably just an error on manethos part as no other lists appear to validate this entry.

statistically speaking this means that the saqqara tablet only contains 25% of the pharaohs it should contain during these timeframes, or conversely it is 75% incorrect.

Dogpatch

Okay, herez some Egipped piktures from circa 1984:

http://www.randallwatters.org/media/Egypt.zip

250 megs, so smoke 'em if you got 'em.

Dogz

34

What is WTS official apostasy definition?

by Healthworker in

is it possible to criticize wt concerning questions of consience for a witness?

for instant concerning education?

love healthworker.

Dogpatch

BTW, I used this as my letter of diassociation after coming back to Cali in 1980 and being re-appointed as an elder in the El Segundo Congregation).

Typically, they sent me a "certified letter" instructing me to report to a judicial committee , after I had obtained all my 8 years of publisher record cards from the secretary of the El Segundo congregation beforehand, saying I was going to "change congregations and needed them to send with a letter of recommendation"), (highly unlikely for them to do this in most cases)... - plus I was already attending Hope Chapel - LOL)

I was in charge of the Tues. nighht bookstudy held in the Kingdom Hall on Grand Ave., and the turning point of DA'ing for me was a barrage of Jesus-freak hippies who were trying to tell me about Jesus in the parking lot, and I said, "It's cool, man, I get it, but better if you leave for now".)

I went surfing on their execution day. Got some nice lefts...

34

What is WTS official apostasy definition?

by Healthworker in

is it possible to criticize wt concerning questions of consience for a witness?

for instant concerning education?

love healthworker.

Dogpatch

Okay, I blew it, forgot to highlite Bert's infamous yet truthful and candid comment that made my hair stand on end:

Salvation By A "Law System"?

Albert Schroeder (a prominent spokesman on the Governing Body), during a meeting of the elders of the Bethel family on May 29, 1980 (referring to those who have questioned their absolute authority), said: "All the things they are teaching ignore the framework we have been developing all these many years."

Many Witnesses at headquarters were also beginning to appreciate that Christianity is not a religion based on rules and regulations (like the Mosaic Law), but that Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ and that Christians walk by means of the Holy Spirit. The Apostle Paul said in Gal. 2:20,21:

"I am impaled along with Christ. It is no longer I that live, but it is Christ that is living in union with me... if righteousness is through the law, Christ actually died for nothing."

"Furthermore, if you are being led by the spirit, you are not under law." (Gal. 5:18)

It is good to know that wherever the word 'law' is not capitalized in the New World Translation (or any other Bible), it is not necessarily referring to the Mosaic Law but to Law Systems Or Rules Imposed Upon Christians. This Is The Key Message Of The Gospel That Collapses The Watchtower System: Are We Saved By Faith In Jesus Christ, Or Like The 'Judaizers' In The First Century, Must We Add The Rules And Standards Of An Organization? (see Gal. 5:1-4).

The surfacing of this issue was more than the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses could bear. Stinging responses were made to the Bethel family such as these, made by Albert Schroeder, speaking to elders of the Bethel family on May 29, 1980:

"We serve not only Jehovah God but we are under our 'mother' (the organization). Our 'mother' has the right to make rules and regulations for us... This book, entitled Branch Organization Procedure, contains 28 subjects; and its sub-sections involve regulations and administration. In it there are 1,177 policies and regulations...this is an improved, fine-tuned organization, and we are expected to follow its policies. If there are some who feel that they cannot subject themselves to the rules and regulations now in operation, such ones ought to be leaving and not be involved here in the further progressive work."

"Some have fallen away from the organization,NOT FROM THE BIBLE, saying there is no need for COMING UNDER LAW...This great program of organization procedure is gathering the things of heaven and earth."

That was my moment of zen. Needless to say I was furiously taking notes. Ray was long gone from Bethel before this.

34

What is WTS official apostasy definition?

by Healthworker in

is it possible to criticize wt concerning questions of consience for a witness?

for instant concerning education?

love healthworker.

Dogpatch

Sorry, that was the wrong file (having a bad day today). Bert's quote is here, highlighted in pink:

[on audio: http://www.watchtowernews.org/media/whathapp.mp3]

Ray Franz did not like my early exposure of this info, the first by an ex-JW (mainly because he has always hated the Trinity doctrine which is somewhat implied in my tract, written and distributed a year before his book "Crisis")

The following is a letter sent to the Watch Tower's Governing Body in 1981 as a letter of resignation/rebuke regarding the way other Bethel family members were treated during the "Franz Incident" of 1979-1980 at the Brooklyn headquarters. At the time of writing this letter, Randall was an elder in the Airport Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses in El Segundo, California (Los Angeles). Randall declined a meeting called by the local elders after they received a copy of this letter, and was subsequently viewed as "disassociated."

This was the first known printed responses delivered to the Watch Tower's Governing Body regarding the events that occurred at Bethel in 1979-1980. Raymond Franz wrote his book Crisis of Conscience a year later. For more information, read The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society - The Critical Years.

January 22, 1981

Dear Members of the Governing Body,

This is not an easy letter to write, considering that I had recently spent almost six years at Bethel working with you, serving as a Bethel elder and a factory overseer. I gave my work the best of my ability, as many of you are aware.

Last July I left Bethel. I explained that I had family situations that needed to be cleared up. This was most assuredly true; but I also did not mention that I had come to realize a lot of things in the last year of my Bethel service, enough to cause me to want to leave, as have many other faithful ones in the last few months.

As does most everyone who comes to Bethel to stay, I stood in awe of the men in responsible positions, especially N.H.Knorr and later the members of the governing body. Of course, in time, I saw that you were human, too; and that all of us have shortcomings. But in the last couple of years, it seems to me that the personality of Christ has not been reflected in your dealings with others.

Having been a table head, I was always down in the morning for the text discussion. In time I began to detect a subtle campaign on your part aimed at discrediting a fellow member of the body as well as others whose beliefs on certain organizational doctrines differed from the majority.

I guess you could say that I knew quite a bit more about the situation than others did. I began to see how Ray Franz had been a 'thorn' in your weekly meetings, due to the fact that he always sought the Biblical approach, rather than by tradition or popular opinion. You actually began to ignore him often, and this undoubtedly contributed to his having to take an extended leave of absence last year.

Not a few know how, back in the early sixties, Ray, Ed Dunlap and Reinhard Lengtat were commissioned to assemble the AID book and how Fred Franz had told them to really examine the Bible to make sure we had the correct understanding on certain things; and that if we needed to make some changes, that we would. We gained a more accurate understanding of many matters, including elders in the 1st century congregations. In time, however, some of the 'proofs' that support our doctrines on chronology and the last days, as well as the 'other sheep' class distinction were revealed to be quite shaky; not to speak of Paul's words in Romans and Galatians that show Christians as living by faith and not by works of law. But you repeatedly refused to consider these things.

It was unfortunate that some of the Spanish elders in a local congregation spoke to their congregation as they did last March 31. But instead of handling this in a calm way, you called in Cris and Norma Sanchez and Nestor Kuilan, who had nothing directly to do with that, and you disfellowshipped them all, despite the fact that they had spent many years in faithful service in responsible positions. When I read the appeal letter that Chris wrote afterwards, it was heartbreaking to see how cold they were treated and how they were called names such as 'suckers' and 'liars' by those who claim to be Christian, even a member of the governing body.

Then you formed another committee in order to frame Ray by taping confessions extracted from close friends of his of things he had said in private to them, I was shocked. Two weeks were spent making tapes, and then you proceed to call him back from his leave of absence and sit him down in a room and play them all back to him in front of everyone. I could have cried. Then you all but disfellowship him and he leaves, but this was just the beginning. Ed Dunlap was extensively questioned, and when he would not back down on what he felt about all of this, he was disfellowshipped. Then I saw how you began to interrogate everyone in the writing department, not on their loyalty to God and Christ, but to the Watchtower Society. Brother Lingtadt was put through over 20 hours of intensive interrogation and subjected to the 3rd degree. Others, I was shocked to find, had their personal phone calls re-directed through the service department in order to spy on them and 'catch' them. Some who gathered in their rooms to study the Bible together were called in and told to quit. A series of 'special questions' were made up and many had to take the 'loyalty' test if they were suspected of knowing about these things.

When Albert Schroeder gave his warning on 'apostasy' to the family, I expected some clarifying information for the family. Instead, the hatred gleamed from his eyes as he proceeded to belittle anyone who would entertain doubts about the Society's interpretations, saying that such persons were weak in faith or proud and presumptuous. Then in his later talk to the Bethel elders, Schroeder stopped at nothing in wrenching the word 'organization' out of the scriptures. He called the organization our 'mother' and said, "She has the right to make rules and regulations for us," and then holds up the Branch Organization Procedure book and pointed out it's 1,177 rules and regulations, knowing full well what Romans 7:6 says about Christians following sets of 'spiritual rules'. Then he actually admits that the beliefs of those dismissed were not an apostasy from the Bible, but from the organization! There IS a difference, isn't there?

I managed to find some words of C.T. Russell himself that you would have done well to heed:

"The endeavor to compel all men to think alike on all subjects, culminated in the great apostasy and the development of the papal system, and thereby the gospel, the one faith that Paul and the other apostles set forth, was lost- buried under the mass of uninspired decrees of popes and councils. The unity of the early church, based upon the simple gospel and bound only by love, gave way to the bondage of the church of Rome...Each new reform movement has made the failure of attempting to make a creed just large enough for its prime movers." p.l572 9/1893 WT

Soon after the disfellowshippings and the talks, each one of you got your turn at the table to heap insults at these individuals and others, not even flinching at twisting the meaning of the scriptures you used. Persons who did not fully accept all that the WT teaches were denounced as 'spiritual fornicators,' 'mentally diseased' and 'insane.' I know that even to this day such is still continuing, much to the disgust of many in the family.

We strive to impress others with the thought that we do not have a clergy-laity class distinction. But we do seem to have a mediator between Christ and man, and that is the governing body. Remember when brother Klein said in private that Franz (Fred) has "been our oracle for the last 67 years"? Few people know who the man is who was the ghost-writer for Rutherford's books and who dreamed up all of the 'types and antitypes' that we still hold to. Those 'types' supposedly identify 'class distinctions' and add support to the distinction between those who interpret the scriptures and those who accept that interpretation as being from God. In the last few months, I remember brother Klein encouraging us not to study the Bible 'too seriously' but to 'Develop hobbies to keep our minds off of doubts.'

It is one thing to claim that the Bible is God's Word and it is incomplete; it is another thing to say we need someone to interpret it for us. The same feeling exists today as it did in Russell's day, and I quote him:

'"We find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the "Scripture Studies" aside, even after he has used them...after he has read them for ten years, and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness." p.298 Sept.15,1910 WT

The same attitude is displayed today about the Watchtower and other books; and we end up reading and studying them instead of God's Word. This doesn't show much faith in the power of the scriptures and the holy spirit.

Let's face it, brothers, this organization has made a lot of mistakes; many that the friends never realized. Jesus did not say he would be the head of any man-made organization with rules. He is the head of the Christian congregation, and he gives his spirit to those who pursue the truth. Being the member of an organization has little to do with whether you are approved by Jehovah; it is our hearts that tell the story. The greatest insult to Jesus Christ comes from your telling millions that they cannot receive God's spirit to become his spiritual sons. You know very well that this undeserved kindness is offered to all who read the Word of God; and just because you thought that the number that could fit into heaven was filled, first in 1881, then 1918 and later 1935, you tell others that they will live on the earth and that it will take 1000 years to make them perfect. Newcomers are intimidated from partaking in the Lord's memorial. You do not believe that the 'other sheep' are technically Christians, as you used to admit years ago (p.249 August 1934 WT). The whole basis for the 'Jonadab class' has it's roots in your chronology; saying that you came up with this idea because it was time to reveal it, even though no one else has ever drawn such a conclusion from reading the Bible.

Well, I know that this is not a very encouraging letter. But it seems that few have the courage to say these things, because of the unreasonable way they are subsequently treated. I do not think you have been very 'discreet' in the last year. Faithful, yes, but not to Jesus Christ; only to the organization.

I do not expect nor wish to make tidal waves among you. Not all of you have the above spirit; you know who you are. I and hundreds of others close to you would wish that you show the spirit of Christ in the days ahead; and work, not for the glories of men, but for the glory of our great God Jehovah.

Sincerely,

RANDALL WATTERS

___________________

of course, Ray never objected to my selling THOUSANDS of his books [without EVER a "thank you" in 30 years)