Posts by thirdwitness

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

And remember death of Pixies said: "All" is idiomatic in Greek, it can easily easily be understood in a certain context and often has exclusions. There is no reason to think that this "all" authority must include the authority of the Davidic Kingship. One does not have to search hard to see "all" pertain to just "some" in the GNT/LXX. Dr. Strong is a putz, but here commenting on pas/panta, he makes good sense: ... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God,little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ... "

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

And auldsoul how many times have we already been over the part about Jesus being a king before 1914. Of course he is king. He is king over his people. He was exalted above all authority and kings when ressurected. There is not another name in which we can get salvation.

But it is clear from Rev 6, 11, 12, Daniel 7:13,14, Luke 19 and others that we have been over numerous times that he receives kingly power at a later date as king of God's Messianic kingdom. Why do you act like this has not already been answered. Why do you want things repeated over and over again?

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

auldsoul: 1) Jesus was the rider of the white horse. The account of the four horsemen does not demonstrate who it was that gave this horseman a crown. The description the JWs give of acts that would correspond to a war king carrying out a conquest to completion is simply silly. Winning court cases? Saving some people who were correctly accused of seditious acts against their government? Building Kingdom Halls and branches? Judging sheep and goats? Your "War King" hasn't been waging a war over the past 100 years.

This was a key speculation, because it compelled you to tie together two portions of Scripture that are not tied together and come up with incorrect and unsubstantiable assumptions. We both know you didn't come up with these, but you seem determined to keep up that pretense so I will let you.

Revelation 19 confirms who the rider of the white horse is. If you can show us a scripture that proves that someone else might be riding on a white horse then by all means please show us. Since you brought it up and so you want claim that I didn't answer you let me go into great detail for you.

Revelation 6:2 tells us, "And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest." Questions that need to be answered are: Who is the rider? Why does he have a bow and is given a crown? When does the ride begin and for what purpose?

Many say it is Satan upon the white horse. However, is there any scriptural support for this? I have found none. But here is what we do find in the Bible about one riding on a white horse. At Revelation 19:11-13, “And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and upon his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God.”

It is quite apparent from the description that this is none other than Jesus Christ. He is the rider of this white horse. If we allow the Bible to interpret itself we can only conclude that the rider of the white horse in Revelation 6 must also be Jesus Christ and no one else. Is there any Biblical proof that shows otherwise?

Obviously the rider being given a crown means that he is receiving authority or kingship. But what is his purpose when beginning this ride in Revelation chapter 6? Here is what seems to be a parallel scripture with similar wording: Psalm 110:1
“The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” 2 The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, saying “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”

Notice the phrases: 'subduing in the midst of your enemies' and 'conquering and to complete his conquest'. The wording seems to be very similar. Jesus is riding to conquer and to subdue. Also notice that he comes forth from Zion, the place where the kings of Jehovah ruled from in Judah. Apparently Revelation 6 and Psalm 110 are describing the same event, the beginning of his ride on the white horse as king.

Notice the result of his subduing in the midst of his enemies in verse 3 of Psalm 110: "Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force. In the splendors of holiness, from the womb of the dawn, You have your company of young men just like dewdrops." Jesus is collecting his people together and many are offering themselves willingly to become part of that great ‘military force’ of praisers of Jehovah. That is the first accomplishments of his subduing in the midst of his enemies and conquering and to complete his conquest. Of course as the ride continues he will execute his judgments upon mankind with the long sword.

Isaiah chapter 41 offers further proof of this. It concerns God collecting his people, Abraham's seed. Notice the similar wording as Psalm 110: Isa. 41:1 “Attend to me in silence, YOU islands; and let national groups themselves regain power. Let them approach. At that time let them speak. Let us come up close together for the judgment itself.”2 “Who has roused up [someone] from the sunrise? [Who] proceeded in righteousness to call him to His feet, to give before him the nations, and to make [him] go subduing even kings?"

Jesus and Jehovah are spoken of as the kings from the sunrise. (Rev 16:12) Again the word subding is used. Jesus subdues the kings of this world as they are powerless to stop the gathering of his people. He also subdues those who will be kings in the Kingdom of God.

Isa 41:8,9 goes on to describe the gathering of God's people. “But you, O Israel, are my servant, you, O Jacob, whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend; 9 you, whom I have taken hold of from the extremities of the earth, and you, whom I have called even from the remote parts of it. And so I said to you, ‘You are my servant; I have chosen you, and I have not rejected you."

From these scriptures we can only conclude that Jesus begins his ride by gathering his chosen ones together. That is how his conquering and subduing in the midst of his enemies begins.

Why is Jesus spoken of as having a bow rather than a sword in the early part of his ride? In the latter part of his ride at the destruction of his enemies at Rev 19:15 we find: "And out of his mouth there protrudes a sharp long sword, that he may strike the nations with it," So we can conclude that the sword is for destroying. But what of the bow?

The bow is a long-range weapon. It indicates that his enemies are still far off. He does not here in Revelation 6 have his sword for up close combat to destroy the wicked. So Jesus ride begins not with the destruction of the wicked but instead with the gathering his people.

But his having a bow would also imply that he would have a quiver to hold his arrows. Notice the comparison made at Isaiah 49:1 "Listen to me, O YOU islands, and pay attention, YOU national groups far away. Jehovah himself has called me even from the belly. From the inward parts of my mother he has made mention of my name. 2 And he proceeded to make my mouth like a sharp sword. In the shadow of his hand he has hidden me. And he gradually made me a polished arrow. He concealed me in his own quiver. 3 And he went on to say to me: “You are my servant, O Israel, you the one in whom I shall show my beauty.”

Do you see that Israel, God's people, is likened to a polished arrow? And Jesus is concealing that arrow in his quiver. How well the scripture above applies to Jehovah's Witnesses in modern times also! Jesus has collected his people together and has polished them by ridding them of Babylonish and Pagan teachings.

And notice Psalms 127:3-5 comparing arrows to sons.
"Look! Sons are an inheritance from Jehovah; The fruitage of the belly is a reward. 4 Like arrows in the hand of a mighty man, So are the sons of youth. 5 Happy is the able-bodied man that has filled his quiver with them. They will not be ashamed, For they will speak with enemies in the gate."

You will note a number of applicable points.
1. Sons are like arrows in the hand of a mighty man.
2. Happy is the one that has a quiver that is full of those sons.
3. And they will speak with enemies in the gate.

Jehovah and Jesus are for a fact mighty. The quiver gets full of His sons, His people. And those statements can certainly apply to God's sons as they speak to 'enemies in the gate'. They are a reply for God to his enemy Satan that there are ones who will be faithful to Him. As Prov. 27:11 says "Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me."

And finally we can add Psalm 45 as further proof. Speaking about the anointed King it says: 4 "And in your splendor go on to success; Ride in the cause of truth and humility [and] righteousness, And your right hand will instruct you in fear-inspiring things. 5 Your arrows are sharp—under you peoples keep falling— In the heart of the enemies of the king. 6 God is your throne to time indefinite, even forever; The scepter of your kingship is a scepter of uprightness."

The arrows can go straight to the heart of the enemies causing people to fall under the feet of Jesus the King and of course the subduing of his enemies enables Christ to gather his people and complete his conquest,

What can we conclude? Jesus’ ride on the white horse began way back when he began to collect his ‘polished arrow’ or servants together.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

AlanF: Before I deal with any more of your nonsense, thirdwitness, you must answer a pile of my previous posts. It's evident that in your desperation you're just spewing out as much BS as you can to see what sticks, and to muddy the waters of discussion, and to avoid dealing with those posts, among those of many other posters. But we're teflon on this forum.

By saying you're like teflon are you saying that your interpretations have gone to the pot?

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

So, AlanF , when did Jesus become king of God's heavenly Messianic Kingdom? When did Jehovah begin ruling through Jesus as king of God's kingdom? Was it 33CE? If so, Was it before he went to heaven or after? Was it after John wrote Revelation? When did Jesus get the crown? Was it 33CE when he was given all authority on earth? Or was it after he was given all authority on earth then he went up to heaven and came on a cloud and appeared before Jehovah as told in Daniel 7:13,14 and received rulership and power? Or was it after Revelation was written when in the future he would receive a crown as Rev 6 shows? Or was it as recorded in Rev 11 and 12 which were prophesying events that would take place after 33CE when the 'kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of the Lord and of his Christ'? Or was it before Revelation 11 where it said that Jehovah has taken His great power and begun ruling as king? Was it before his enemies were placed as a stool for his feet or after? Did he become king of God's kingdom before 61CE while still waiting for his enemies to be placed as a stool or not? In other words, was he already king of God's kingdom in 33CE still waiting for his enemies to be placed as a stool for his feet in 61CE as Paul said. Your beliefs are very confusing and contradictory.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

How intellectually dishonest can you be?

Have you bothered to ask yourself the same question thirdwitness?

What do you mean? I have put forth one belief and it harmonizes with all the Bible. I have repeatedly shown this over and over again. I am not trying to just say anything that will disprove one certain group regardless of how many times I contradict myself. The only point AlanF is trying to make is JWs are wrong but he offers no accurate interpretation because he could care less whether what anyone says contradicts what he has been saying or not, just so they don't support JWs belief. If someone comes up with some reasoning claiming that Christ began to rule in 70CE he will jump on the band wagon despite the fact that he has been preaching that Christ received 'all authority in 33CE. He has just shown that to be a fact in his statement above. Just so it contradicts JWs. He is intellectually dishonest to the max.

39

Earthquakes and rumors of war or whatever ;o)

by Hellrider in

i was so inspired by the ridicolousness of thirdwitnoid in that other thread ("the gentile times reconsidered again...but this time i am using the bible"), in which he actually dared bring up the old "increase in earthquakes"-fairytale from the wt and asleep.

it really had nothing to do in that thread, which was about 607 vs 587 (oh no, not that again.... datelocationdeathsmagnitude.

jan. 23, 1556. shansi, china .

thirdwitness

Hey did you know that earthquakes in 1556 averaged close to one million per year. How about that statistic?

You can't just pull out of your hat and start with a big earthquake that occured and then finish with a big earthquake and claim see there how many died from this period to the period. More is involved than earthquakes. I challenge you to find any 90 year period that had almost 2 million earthquake deaths and 100 million war deaths. And then there is famine and all the other parts of the sign. And so after you find that 90 year period with 2 million and 100 million deaths from eqs and wars, make sure it is also the same 90 year period when the good news of the kingdom of God is preached in almost every country to millions of people. And I'm not talking about the false news about some Trinity God that burns people in hell forever. I'm talking about the real good news of the kingdom--a kingdom set up with God's son as ruler by the true God who is not a Trinity, Jehovah, that will bring paradise conditions to earth as foretold in the Bible.

Then you will have made your point.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

AlanF: 2) John's words in Revelation 1:1, 3 here clearly indicate that he wrote the Revelation just a few years before 70 A.D., in which case his words about the above events being near make sense, being applicable to the soon-to-be-realized destruction of Jerusalem.

Oh ok, so then you believe that God's kingdom begin to rule sometime after 33CE since Revelation includes the prophecy of Satan being thrown out of heaven and God's kingdom taking power at Rev 11 and 12. I thought that you said that Christ began to rule in 33CE after going to heaven and sitting at the right hand of God but wait Paul said in about 61CE at Heb 10:13 that Christ was still waiting for his enemies to be placed as a stool so that can't be true or was it in 33CE when he was still on earth that he began to rule when he said he had been given 'all authority' .. All does mean all, right?

You sure do contradict yourself alot with your fake Bible interpretations that you don't even believe. You are willing to put forth and support any interpretation except the correct one. Any that disagree with JWs is ok even if they contradict each other and yourself. How intellectually dishonest can you be?

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

Jesus is asked, “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your parousia and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

Jesus reply begins like this: "And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet."

Is he talking about the sign of his presence here? Yes. That was the question he is answering. In verse 7 and 8 he gives us more details, “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress." The parallel statements above are: 'the end is not yet' and 'a beginning of pangs of distress'. There is indeed some period of time involved before the end actually comes.

Are the wars and reports of wars the same as nation rising against nation? Apparently that would be the case. But a key point to notice is that Jesus did not say but 'my parousia is not yet'. He said, 'but the end is not yet'.When Jesus said, ‘but the end is not yet’ he was making a clear distinction between 'a beginning of pangs of distress' and the coming of God's kingdom to destroy the wicked at Armageddon. This beginning of pangs of distress would also mark the beginning of Christ's parousia for he is after all answering the question: What will be the sign of your parousia?

The riding of the horsemen in Revelation 6 and pangs of distress marking Christ’s presence correspond with one another. Both tell of great war, food shortages, and pestilence. A 'beginning of pangs of distress’ and the riding of the horsemen do not mark the beginning of the Great tribulation or the beginning of Armageddon. Christ’s parousia corresponds to the Lord’s Day and to the time when Jesus would receive a crown and began his ride as king, but not to Armageddon, the Great Tribulation, or the end of the system, although these events do occur at the end of the Lord’s Day or Christ’s parousia.

A Guide to 2oth Century Wars makes this comment:

"The 20th century was an era of unprecedented conflict, with wars claiming more victims than ever before. Not only did European wars become truly global for the first time, but the new technologies of violence – from poison gas to the atom bomb – meant that it was easier to kill large numbers of people at the same time. Added to this, wars became total: they were fought with the aim not just of victory, but of annihilating the enemy. And the enemy was no longer simply defined as soldiers, but included civilians."

Here is the link for that sight. http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/guide20/part05.html

Does that not sound like nation rising against nation! And isn't that exactly what happened during WW I and WW II? For the first time the entire nation including the civilian population was involved in the war on an unprecedented scale, not just the soldiers. In fact, more civilians died in the World Wars than soldiers.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

Here is futher proof that the parousia/days of the Son of man covers more than just the time when God's Kingdom comes to destroy the wicked.

First we must establish that the events that John sees in Revelation are events that occur in the Lord’s Day. At Rev 1:10 John writes, "By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet…” This clearly establishes that every vision and every happening that John sees are in the Lord’s Day and not before. He then sees in the latter part of chapter one Jesus walking in the midst of the congregations. When? In the Lord’s Day!

Then notice verse 11: “What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations, in Eph´e·sus and in Smyr´na and in Per´ga·mum and in Thy·a·ti´ra and in Sar´dis and in Philadelphia and in La·o·di·ce´a.” He then proceeds to write Jesus’ words to the congregations both commending them as well as counseling them. The point is that the congregations have been established sometime during the Lord’s Day for they exist and are receiving the letters in the Lord’s day.

Let us take note of some of the phrases written to those congregations during the Lord’s Day:

Rev 2:5, “If you do not, I am coming to you, and I will remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.”

Rev 2:16, “Therefore repent. If you do not, I am coming to you quickly, and I will war with them with the long sword of my mouth.”Rev 2:25, “Just the same, hold fast what YOU have until I come.”Rev 3:3, "Certainly unless you wake up, I shall come as a thief, and you will not know at all at what hour I shall come upon you."

Do you notice what these phrases have in common? According to these verses Jesus Christ has not yet come as a thief in the night to execute judgment with the long sword. That is yet future. There is still time to repent. And remember, according to the earlier scripture John was transferred into the Lord’s Day. We can therefore conclude that the Lord’s Day actually begins before his arrival as a thief in the night at Armageddon.