effe said: I read this whole thread and I see that 3W, among other things, keeps defending the argument about heavier and more deadly earthquakes from 1914 until now, compared to the period before 1914. Although AlanF has made it painfully clear that such an "argument" is completely rubbish according to the most specific available data today, it still strikes me that 3W is ready to use the argument when the WT has already abandoned it for about 4 years!! They admit that an increase of number or power is required. Why 3W, are you even willing to defend something that doesn't need to be defended anymore? Does that show how much influence the WT has over you, that you can't even accept new light? Your statistics don't mean anything, not only because you're proven grossly wrong by some posters here (specially AlanF), but they also don't mean a thing to the WTS anymore, because no matter how foolish they are at some reasonings, they do accept that there is no increase in number or power. If you would read every post I have written about earthquakes you would see that I have never claimed that there was an increase in the number of earthquakes or the power of earthquakes. I have always maintained that earthquakes have affected far more lives since 1914 than ever by the number of deaths caused. Over 16,000 per year post 1914 Vs. about 2000 deaths per year pre 1914, that is if we take the highest figures available pre 1914. I agree with the WT 100 percent when it said: Note, though, that the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy does not require an increase in the number or power of earthquakes. All Jesus said was that there would be great earthquakes in one place after another. Furthermore, he stated that these events would mark the "beginning of pangs of distress." (Matthew 24:8) Distress is measured, not by the number of earthquakes or how they rate on the Richter scale, but by the effect that they have upon people.
thirdwitness
JoinedPosts by thirdwitness
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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thirdwitness
I think I might have called on AlanF in field service one time. I was showing him about how the earth would not be destroyed. And I was reasoning with him on 2 Peter 3 where it shows that the world in Noah's day was destroyed. I reasoned with him that we are still on the same planet earth so just like in Noah's day it will be the same in our day. It is not the planet earth itself that will be destroyed but rather the ungodly men. His reply was: How do you know that the water didn't get so high that Noah ended up on a different planet? Was that you, AlanF? I wonder because his reasoning abilities on the Bible is very similar to that man I met in field service.
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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thirdwitness
AlanF: Jesus did not give any "signs" of his parousia that included earthquakes, famine, pestilence, war, or any other catastrophes
alrighty then. Lets rip Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 out of our Bible and replace it with AlanF 24: 3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things have nothing to do with the sign of my presence.
AlanF 6: 2 And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was already on his head given him in 33CE, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.
3 And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: “Come!” 4 And another did not come forth, not even a fiery-colored horse; and there was granted not to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and not even a great sword was given him.
5 And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: “Come!” And I saw, and, look! not a black horse; and the one not seated upon it did not have a pair of scales in his hand.
7 And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say: “Come!” 8 And I saw, and, look! not a pale horse; no one named Death. And no authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.
I am sorry I ever doubted your abilities at understanding, interpreting, and explaining the Bible. I am writing my letter of disassociation tomorrow and joining you as an atheist or whatever you call yourself who don't believe the Bible is inspired and don't believe the true God is Jehovah. Thanks so much for enlightening me. I am so glad that now I can go bar hopping, partying, fornicating, using drugs, smoking, and the like, no longer burdened by those foolish teachings and morals of the Bible and JWs.
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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thirdwitness
DannyH said: Thank you Alan and company I agree 100 percent. Thank you so much for showing us that try as hard as you can, you just cannot disprove that Christ's parousia and kingdom began in 1914 or that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607.
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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thirdwitness
auldsoul: Nothing in the Bible ties the presence of the Son of man to the arrival of the kingdom of God. That is a fiction of JWs, not a teaching of the Bible.
I like it when you make statements that are easily shown from the Bible to be false. It makes it so much easier for everyone to see how apostates want to mislead you with non truths. Let me show you AGAIN.
Lets see if you can connect the dots. I will highlight the key points in red to help you out.
Matt 24: While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” ... 7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
Luke 21 adds; 11 ...and in one place after another pestilences and food shortages;
Enter Revelation 6: 2 And I saw, and, look! a white horse; (Rev 19:11) and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.
3 And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: “Come!” 4 And another came forth, a fiery-colored horse; and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him.
5 And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: “Come!” And I saw, and, look! a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice as if in the midst of the four living creatures say: “A quart of wheat for a de·nar´i·us, and three quarts of barley for a de·nar´i·us; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine.”
7 And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say: “Come!” 8 And I saw, and, look! a pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Ha´des was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Did you note? Christ's arrival in his presence would be followed by great war, food shortages, pestilence. Christ's receiving crown was to be followed by great war, food shortages, pestilence.
Rev 12: 9 So down the great dragon was hurled,... 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, ... 12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU , having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”
Note: first God's kingdom comes to pass then woe for the earth. Woe such as great war, food shortages, pestilence.
Psalms 110: 1 The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is:
“Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”2 The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:]
“Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”Heb 10:12: sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.
Luke 21:24: Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.
Ezekiel 21:26: ‘Remove the turban, and lift off the crown (607--Zedekiah removed). This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. 27 A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no [one’s] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.’
Daniel 4:17: that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind.”
God's kingdom was trampled on until the Gentile times ended in 1914 after the 2520 years. At that time God's kingdom was no longer under the feet of the enemies but rather the role was reversed and now the enemies were a stool for Jesus' feet.
Luke 21: 29 With that he spoke an illustration to them: “Note the fig tree and all the other trees: 30 When they are already in the bud, by observing it YOU know for yourselves that now the summer is near. 31 In this way YOU also, when YOU see these things occurring, know that the kingdom of God is near.
Compare this to Matt 24: 32 “Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, YOU know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also YOU , when YOU see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.
Matthew 25: 10 While they were going off to buy, the bridegroom arrived, and the virgins that were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut.
When Christ shuts the door it means it is too late and that is the time when God's kingdom take action to destroy its enemies. When you see the sign of Christ's presence you should know that the kingdom's coming at Armageddon to destroy the wicked is near.
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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thirdwitness
Auldsoul said: It matters not whether you assert that "every eye will see him" is figurative. It still would be earthwide recognition of an event, seeing it for what it is and for what it means for the earth. This event would not require preachers. This event did not happen in 1914. Down to our day the JW conjecture that "occurred" in 1914 is still not recognized by the majority of the world.
You are mixed up. I see that you have been taken in by AlanF's wrong thinking that JWs believe that Rev 1:7 is about 1914. As I have pointed out over and over again Revelation 1:7 is not referring to 1914 and the start of Christ's parousia. It is referring to the final part of Christ's parousia, time of the destuction of the wicked when every eye will indeed see him when they are either destroyed or saved. Yes, this event will be seen by all.
So your saying that Christ's parousia could not have begun in 1914 because every eye did not see it is bogus. The Bible easily shows you to be wrong that every eye would see Christ's arrival at the beginning of his parousia. Remember this scripture: 2 Peter 3: 3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”
So there you have it. Most people would not recognize that Christ's parousia had begun and that we were living in the last days. This coincides with what Jesus said, "The kingdom of God is not coming the striking observableness." Why do you think a sign was needed anyway?
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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thirdwitness
And don't worry, Auldsoul, I will be exposing you comments as false AGAIN very soon.
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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thirdwitness
AlanF's latest comments are mostly just rhetoric. First, I will quote his statements that have no value as they are not supported by anything other than because he says so and we are supposed to believe it because he is the all wise all knowing guru of the DB.
Readers will note once again the circularity of thirdwitness' arguments: "Since the presence is invisible, no one can see it. No one actually saw this presence beginning in 1914. Therefore, the parousia is invisible".
Translation: You have to blind yourself to the Bible and look at what the Watchtower Society claims about the Bible.
Translation: When you look at the Bible through Watchtower-colored glasses, you willingly become blinded to bullpucky, but it takes a lot of work to blind yourself that far.
You certainly have a problem with spelling. I think that you ought to run your posts by some of your more astute colleagues, such as the one who described my "website" as "retarted". LOL!
Then at last he admits that JWs just might be right about Christ's parousia being invisible. Thanks for the frank admission.
AlanF says: No one is claiming that "every eye will literally see Jesus". What posters such as I and AuldSoul are saying is nothing more or less than what the Bible itself says: Jesus' coming would be extremely visible in whatever unspecified manner the Bible writers meant -- if they consciously meant anything at all. If the Bible writers intended that "visible" meant literally, then so be it. If they intended that "visible" meant "in the sense that everyone would understand that Jesus had appeared in no uncertain terms to begin direct rule of the world", then so be it.
Then AlanF makes another blunder: Readers will note that the above-quoted passage from Daniel (7:13,14) gives no indication whatsoever as to when the supposed prophecies were to be fulfilled. Therefore, it is pure speculation to apply a specific fulfillment to these "prophecies".Yes the Bible does tell when Christ's gains rulership as recorded at Daniel 7. It is the time of the last world power, the small horn that becomes great. No speculation needed at all.
All you're doing is arguing that Jesus will never again be personally visible on earth, in the sense of his human body being observable or a ghostly manifestation being visible, such as whatever seems to have appeared to such people as the doubting Thomas who is claimed to have put his fingers into Jesus' spear wound. This is not an issue here.
Thanks for another admission that JWs are right that Christ's parousia is invisible. Take note lurkers. Even one of the foremost apostates has been forced to admit this because to argue against it would show his Bible ignorance.
When lightning flashes, no one with normal senses can fail to see it. Therefore, the parousia, or the coming of the Son of man, will be visible to everyone with normal senses.Of course. Anyone who has discerning powers can see Christ's invisible presence is here. That is exactly why Jesus gave a sign. So that his presence could be discerned. But you do not have such discerning powers. You make silly arguments about earthquakes when the evidence clearly shows that Jesus words, There will be great earthquakes in one place after another is now being fulfilled since 1914. 16,000 per year killed after 1914. 2000 killed per year before 1914. And even though the wars since 1914 have killed about as many as all the wars between the 1st century and 1914 you refuse to see the sign. 1 million per year killed on average in wars since 1914. 50 thousand killed per year before 1914. You and others like you have closed your eyes to Christ's presence and have missed the sign. Too bad for you.
Bottom line: Revelation 1:7 is connected with 1914 only in the fertile imaginations of Watchtower writers.
Once again you are off to see the wizard. Another misrepresentation of what JWs believe. We do not believe that Revelation 1:7 is talking about 1914 as I pointed out clearly in my previous post. This is a typical apostate ploy. To misrepresent what JWs believe and then attack that strawman.
You have now done this several times:
You said JWs believe that Noah preached to the 'entire' world. We have never said that.
You said JWs believe parousia only means the stay after his arrival even saying the 96 WT lied. We believe parousia means his arrival and subsequent presence and I pointed that out in several WTs.
And now you say in WT writer's minds Revelation 1:7 is about 1914. Its not. Its about the destruction of those who don't obey the good news.
You are so fond of calling people liars. It is now time that you call yourself a liar since everyone else can see that you are such.
: Revelation 1:7 corresponds to Matthew 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
A fair conclusion that is entirely in harmony with all of my arguments.
Great so you agree that JWs are right that Christ's presence is invisible and that he will destroy the wicked at Armageddon. Then why do you teach Christendom's vomit?
For the people who know something of Jehovah's Witnesses, almost all reject them as a cult that should be rejected on general grounds,
Now there's a real eye opener. This really proves a lot. How foolish of me. Of course since the majority rejects JWs they can't be right. Lets throw in the garbage what Jesus said when he said, Broad and spacious is the road leading to destruction and many are the ones finding it. But narrow is the road and cramped the gate leading to life and few are the ones finding it. Here's a statement for you: For the people who knew something of Christians in the first century, almost all reject them as a cult that should be rejected on general grounds,.. Your reasoning is overwhelming. How could anyone ever doubt what you say?
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Earthquakes and rumors of war or whatever ;o)
by Hellrider ini was so inspired by the ridicolousness of thirdwitnoid in that other thread ("the gentile times reconsidered again...but this time i am using the bible"), in which he actually dared bring up the old "increase in earthquakes"-fairytale from the wt and asleep.
it really had nothing to do in that thread, which was about 607 vs 587 (oh no, not that again.... datelocationdeathsmagnitude.
jan. 23, 1556. shansi, china .
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thirdwitness
When a person makes a list of the greatest earthquakes do they put on the list some earthquake in the middle of nowhere that might have registered a 10 on the richter scale but did no damage to civilization. Of course not. I don't think Jesus had in mind an in depth study of quakes and their magnitudes throughout history to determine if great quakes were in one place after another. I believe he had in mind that to the normal person looking at world events it would be evident that earthquakes would do more damage in terms of destruction and loss of life than previously. And they have.
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Earthquakes and rumors of war or whatever ;o)
by Hellrider ini was so inspired by the ridicolousness of thirdwitnoid in that other thread ("the gentile times reconsidered again...but this time i am using the bible"), in which he actually dared bring up the old "increase in earthquakes"-fairytale from the wt and asleep.
it really had nothing to do in that thread, which was about 607 vs 587 (oh no, not that again.... datelocationdeathsmagnitude.
jan. 23, 1556. shansi, china .
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thirdwitness
Jesus said there would be great earthquakes in one place after another. The more damage an earthquake does and the more people it kills the greater the earthquake. All your reasoning about there being more people on the earth is bogus. Jesus probably knew that.
Which is worse? A plane crash that kills all 10 people on board, 100 percent? Or a plane crash that kills 999 out of 1000--less than 100 percent? The answer is obvious. You can twist statistics all you want to try to support you view. The fact is that Jesus said that there would be great earthquakes in one place after another. There are. And the earthquakes since 1914 have killed more people on average per year than before 1914, a lot more.
Jesus was right. JWs are right.