I don't see why it needs to or should or even if it could. In my experience, one has nothing to do with the other. To be more specific: I've known very religious people who are cruel bastards with a significant lack of compassion (many a JW, for example or even a Catholic Mafioso). Then, I've met people with no religious affiliation who are reverent, humane and have a sense that we are more than whatever the cost is of the hand-full of chemicals that make up our bodies.
These days I have a suspicion that since neurologists discovered the “G” (God) spot in our brain, we may well have an innate disposition for the spiritual and maybe even for more. For science, the question of whether it's there to communicate with God or if we tend to communicate with “God” because it's there is an open and probably an unanswerable question (if one could even suggest that the question is in its venue). Still something tells me that we probably need to “feed” or nurture this new 7th sense (or is it part of the old 6th sense?) While individuals like Richard Dawkins (Darwin's rottweiler) cannot successfully explain the universal appeal for god in evolutionary terms, the idea of a verifiable part of the brain that is a center of sorts for spirituality casts doubt on a process (Natural Selection) that would give humans something they apparently absolutely do not need or ever needed.
For me, spirituality is the person while religion is the clothing the person wears. To some people, the cloak of religions is comparable to a fashion statement. To others, it's a source of comfort and protection. For some who have an underdeveloped sense of spirituality but are very religious, it's like having some very fancy clothing to cover up the body but not ever taking a bath.
Many of today's “new age gurus” and other religious writers like Karen Armstrong or Frank Schaeffer have (in a way) abandoned religion (Armstrong was a nun and Schaeffer a fundamentalist Christian) for an apparently more middle-of-the-road approach to spirituality. It seems that this is more important to some people than actual doctrines and specifics about who-did-what-when. Either way, for me organized religion really sucks.
Etude.
Posts by Etude
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61can spirituality replace religion?
by make yourself ini was watching cnn, an d they asked this question and this one lady called in and claimed she wasn't raised in a religious household.
but she remembered when she was in elementary school that this jw girl asked her if she was spritual she said no, then the jw told her she would go to hell.
wow.
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Etude
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Is the Jehovahs Witnesses organization really a cult?
by Etude inim sure the question has been brought up before on this board and i imagine that for many of us the answer is patent.
however, i recently saw a documentary on pbs regarding the mormons and it stated categorically that the church of jesus christ of latter day saints is not a cult.
given that it has its own set of strangeness and history of revision as has the wtbts, could it also (the jw) be considered a main stream, although minor religion?.
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Etude
Mad Sweeney:
I know, I know. I really have no problem calling the WTBTS, the Mormons, Scientology, Christian Scientists, the Freemasonry or the Rosicrucians cults. Heck, I believe that if we go by the sociological definition of cult, the good ol' Catholic mother church is a cult. I mean (this if for you skeeter1) the Pope speaks for God and is indeed the ultimate authority down to whether you should wear a condom or not. And, although not commonly used, they do have excommunication and can tell their clergy or laity to “shut up and sit down” or get out. But alas, nobody in the media or scholastic circles calls them a cult. When I used to go door to door in Field Service, I often encountered individuals who would assure me that they were born Catholic, raised Catholic and would always be Catholic, even if I proved to them that Mary was not always a virgin and that the Church lied.
If heads are rolling in the Catholic hierarchy these days, it's not for lack of trying to cover up all the decades of child abuse. The cat is out of the bag because people talked and the media listened and lawsuits were served. The result is a more accurate representation of the Church beyond their pious squeaky-clean image. So, it doesn't really matter if they're a cult or not as long as the truth is out. I just thought that if some people “in the know” think that the WTBTS is not a cult, we could talk about the JWS in the proper context, i.e. major religions like it are very f***ed up judging from what they do, instead of dismissing them as just another “cult”. I mean, I want to get at those bastards, not because of what they did to me (I'm very OK now), but because they're still keeping my family hostage. I want to do it intelligently and reasonably, taking into account a complete view of the world towards them. Am I being a bit anal about this? Maybe I'm just putting too fine a point on it.
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So your telling me you can be an a**hole until you get bapitized, and other tales...
by Confuzzled inwithout launching into my saga, of which many of you already know, i have a jw baby daddy who besides being a jw is an emotional midget w/women issues....i continue to come here for support and info concerning the future of my infant and the quirks of the jw family & belief system at large, and what i will be dealing with in the future, bf or no bf, so this inquiry has nothing to do with my relationship with this person or lack-there-of, i'm just seeking answers to what seems puzzling.
my posts are lacking in any specific detail as to not alert any possible lurking done my boyfriend or his family members, call me paranoid but it sometimes the circumstances, should they be stumbled on, are far to unique for it to be anybody other then this person, or their family.. anyhoo, my non-baptized jw bf is mad at his mother, along with many of his brothers and sisters (he has a huge family).
mama, it turns out was never baptized, even though she has been a jw for as long as my boyfriend has been alive (almost 40 yrs).
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Etude
Holy crap! What a mess. Still, I was hoping for a few more messy details, some more dirt or something. I feel like a peeping tom. It's like watching car races: somehow in the back of your mind you want to see a spectacular crash while dreading what happens to the people in the race. What doesn't surprise me is that strange status that some people enjoy where they are part of the JW “community” but aren't really one of them. My dad was in that state for many years although he didn't really attend meetings.
I don't think this is a going to end well. It will never again be what it was. The only blessing may be that members of the family take sides away from the JWS including you BF.
Etude.
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56
Is the Jehovahs Witnesses organization really a cult?
by Etude inim sure the question has been brought up before on this board and i imagine that for many of us the answer is patent.
however, i recently saw a documentary on pbs regarding the mormons and it stated categorically that the church of jesus christ of latter day saints is not a cult.
given that it has its own set of strangeness and history of revision as has the wtbts, could it also (the jw) be considered a main stream, although minor religion?.
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Etude
If you were to walk up to a JW and tell them that they are in a cult, and that you have all the information that they need to prove it to them, most would refuse to look at the information.
Naturally! If you approached Republicans with proof that their party has had as much or more budgetary expenditures than the Democrats, the majority would refuse the facts as well. That's human nature. It's worse with JWS because they are actively encouraged to give up their brains to someone else. I agree that this is a “cult” feature. But in reality, I don't care what you call it to know what they're doing. I was just concerned with other people's perception (the media, the government, etc) of what this group really is. A non-negative label tends to add to their legitimacy. The fact is that many don't view the WTBTS as a cult. Why? How do we change that perception? How do we change ours without giving up the truth in order to adjust?
Etude.
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56
Is the Jehovahs Witnesses organization really a cult?
by Etude inim sure the question has been brought up before on this board and i imagine that for many of us the answer is patent.
however, i recently saw a documentary on pbs regarding the mormons and it stated categorically that the church of jesus christ of latter day saints is not a cult.
given that it has its own set of strangeness and history of revision as has the wtbts, could it also (the jw) be considered a main stream, although minor religion?.
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Etude
Black Sheep:
I'm well aware of the "issues". At no time did I minimize the impact of what these people do. That is not an excuse for ignoring or having a lack of understanding how others view them. No, I'm not "one of those people who like to categorize everyone into nice little boxes". But, I'll be damned if I'm going to ignore that other people do, especially with regard to a dangerous organization like the WTBTS. It can make a difference. You can ignore that and bury your head in the sand. I'll just keep questioning to make sure I'm not missing something.
Etude.
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Leaving Jehovah's Witnesses is a Negative, Depressing Thing To Do, but....
by AllTimeJeff inover the years since i left jehovahs witnesses, one of the more fascinating things to observe, and really to me, the most important, is what to do after you leave.. to be sure, no one leaves because of a positive experience.
and therein lies the issues with leaving.
basically, people leave in three general ways: 1. they, like myself, resign or leave due to a disagreement.
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Etude
Leave, get disfellowshipped or fade away: Well, I guess I experience a triple whammy because I went through all three stages:
First I had the disagreements --They dealt with my expectation of what I considered Christian and right and theocratic. That started at Bethel and I couldn’t take it anymore and left there. Going back to the congregation left me very disappointed. I had already started questioning the organizational arrangements and how the elders arbitrated over things. I experienced a sort of boredom which later turned into an annoyance at hearing the same crappy tidbits of fourth-grade wisdom coming from the platform. Needing something to fill my void (even though I was barely still attending the meetings), I started going to college. That was very exciting but it further alienated me from everyone else, including my family. You could say that I was starting to “fade”, but that was not the biggest shove in that direction that I experienced. It wasn’t a complete and final exit, but I was essentially on my own.
By then, depression had set in. This was partly due to my nature and partly due to the guilt I experienced for leaving what I had come to accepted as true. I not only felt the loss of fellowship and the camaraderie I experienced at Bethel, but I couldn’t really talk to anyone in the congregation or my family about my curricular activities at college. Studying in a higher-learning institution was still frowned upon. Making friends in the “world” was not easy. I was a bit ashamed of my religious past and I had not completely gone over to the “other side”. You could say I was pretty screwed existing in a social and spiritual limbo.
Fading away -- Eventually, I left my home in the East and headed to the West Coast. With new surroundings, I expected a change. The change was worse, I didn’t know anyone, even though I manage to look up a local congregation and make acquaintances. That’s when I really started to fade. I found myself alone not willing to share my past with anyone, not being able to communicate with my Witness family and being in a new unfamiliar place with little money for entertainment. I had been so desperate that I decided to risk my venture alone without much help from anyone. Even though I eventually had stopped associating with the new congregation (it was easy because I barely knew anyone), I still had the guilt and kept telling myself that I would return to it someday.
After giving myself permission to “wander off”, I started to associate with some co-workers. That inevitably led to parties and some other stuff that I don’t regret but would rather not do again. With that came the women, the booze and some experimentation with certain other substances – I didn’t go sex-crazy or became a drunk or a drug addict. So, I feel lucky I came out of that OK. I credit my upbringing for having instilled in me some moral controls and to some serious evaluation on my part to keep me honest and not go off the deep end. I was still thinking that I would always go back to the JWs. I met a guy at a bar who turned out to be an ex. JW (we were both trying to pick up a lady). We felt kindred for being in the same situation. After some conversations in which I admitted to him that I would someday return, he emphatically stated that he would not. He said it in a way that revealed his hurt and disappointment. He apparently had some run-ins with the elders, especially with a few that had an unfair favoritism for someone else and antagonism for him. I didn't understand what he felt until much later.
Being disfellowshipped: Even though I wanted to return, I wasn’t quite ready. I had encountered another ex-Witness that I knew from my days back East and he told me about Ray Franz’s book “Crisis of Conscience”, several months after its publication. It was pretty devastating because I knew Ray (we attended the same congregation for a time and I also saw him while I was living at Brooklyn Bethel) but I had been so out of touch, I had no idea all of that had transpired. It prompted me to write a letter to the Society asking about the military situation with the brothers in Mexico. Even though they replied directly, they sent a copy to the local congregation, which prompted a couple of visits from the elders. It was unfortunate that the elders decided to pay me a visit and found a pack of cigarettes on my coffee table. Yes, I had started that habit again having smoked for a bit before I was baptized. They told me that I had to come back and quit right now, otherwise they wouldn’t accept my desire to be with “Jehovah’s People”. I told them that I’d like to do that but that it wasn’t so easy at this stage of my life. They left and then I got the letter several weeks later. I was DF’d. I was saddened at first, but then turn angrier with the years. By then I had discovered all their lies; that the world wasn’t so bad; that non-Witnesses were not the enemy; that there were good people everywhere. It was a fast and furious education that turned me into a relatively savvy worldly person from a sheltered innocent youth (which was mostly consumed by the WTBTS).
Yes, in many ways my pendulum swung to the other extreme, even to the point of questioning the fundamental belief in God. I then attacked those questions with all the intellectual intensity and honesty I could muster and have come to an unusual but comfortable conclusion. Leaving didn’t turn out to be just an unhappy thing. It was damned-right painful and quite devastating emotionally. My deception cut deep. However, I couldn’t be more fulfilled and secure because of it. I’m married, happy, non-smoking and have experienced many wonderful things. Even though I don’t talk much about it today, in a way I treasure that ugly past because it’s largely responsible for the person I am today. It’s like a guy at Bethel used to say to me: “I wouldn’t take a million dollars in exchange for this experience, but I would give a penny for any more of it.”
Etude.
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56
Is the Jehovahs Witnesses organization really a cult?
by Etude inim sure the question has been brought up before on this board and i imagine that for many of us the answer is patent.
however, i recently saw a documentary on pbs regarding the mormons and it stated categorically that the church of jesus christ of latter day saints is not a cult.
given that it has its own set of strangeness and history of revision as has the wtbts, could it also (the jw) be considered a main stream, although minor religion?.
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Etude
The Catholic church IS a cult. Just not as bad as Witnesses, they have a lot less control over the minds of their members.
-SabI suppose that if that’s the case, then each and every major Religion is a cult. How do we differentiate them from anything else? Should we say that religions are cults unless all they do is secular or do we examine the current meanings of “cult”? This is what led me to ask the question in the first place, because an authority I had not counted on stated that the Mormon faith is not a cult. There are obvious differences of opinion there.
The WBATS is absolutely a cult as is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The LDS has best been described as the Scientology of it's day and it really is. LDS and WBATS are brothers
upnorthTo be absolutely fair, some of the comments on the website (PBS Frontline/An American Experience: The Mormons [http://www.pbs.org/mormons/talk/]) pointed to the fact that (although not specifically mentioned), the majority of the commentators and scholars interviewed were Mormons, which tends to bias the presentation. However, the comment as I recall was that Mormons are a main-stream world-wide force to be reckoned with and therefore not a cult. Yes, it exerts a lot of political and financial influence that the WTBTS does not. Nevertheless, the WTBTS holds a similar status of a major American-born religion as far as many scholars and political factions are concerned.
Their methods are identical to those used by groups that are undoubtedly cults.
WobbleI agree. How about self flagellation or the old Catholic saying: “Give me a child at a tender age and you’ll have a Catholic forever”? How about the abuse and cover-up of molestations in the C.C? All of that is a fact of a major denomination that is not considered a cult, even if I think it’s cultish. And, looking back at its history, can we say that the Catholic Church has exhibited “Intellectual dishonesty, manipulation, coercion, etc. carried out to inhuman lengths to ensure said wacky beliefs are followed at all times without exception”. Definitely yes! But just because you put feathers on a dog, it don’t make it a chicken.
Lastly, let’s keep in mind that modes, attitudes, meanings and definitions change with time. I just don’t want to underestimate the general perception of the WTBTS just because I keep thinking they’re a bunch of fuckwits in their teachings. I'm continually surprised how those bastards snake their way out of doctrinal cages and still manage to keep the majority of the flock in tow. It is possible that they may “adjust” enough to be able to take a more active role in politics and become as influential as the Mormons. I don’t doubt that their effort to be an aggregate to the U.N. (even as an NGO) was just a small step in that direction. Now, there’s a rumor that they’re softening the U.N. position in the congregation (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/192009/1/UNITED-NATIONS-CHARTER-read-in-all-congregations-at-beginning-of-SPECIAL-TALK). Watch out.
Etude.
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56
Is the Jehovahs Witnesses organization really a cult?
by Etude inim sure the question has been brought up before on this board and i imagine that for many of us the answer is patent.
however, i recently saw a documentary on pbs regarding the mormons and it stated categorically that the church of jesus christ of latter day saints is not a cult.
given that it has its own set of strangeness and history of revision as has the wtbts, could it also (the jw) be considered a main stream, although minor religion?.
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Etude
I’m sure the question has been brought up before on this board and I imagine that for many of us the answer is patent. However, I recently saw a documentary on PBS regarding the Mormons and it stated categorically that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not a cult. Given that it has its own set of strangeness and history of revision as has the WTBTS, could it also (the JW) be considered a “main stream”, although minor religion?
To make a determination, I looked around a bit and found that “cult” carries varying degrees of cargo. Originally it simply meant a system of ritualistic practices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult). The negative connotation is an affectation of the 20th century. This has led to diverging characterizations between religious studies academics and sociologists. For the former, there is no dark meaning and the practicing group is simply another new religion. For the latter, given the “recent” historical perspective beginning in the 70’s (The Moonies, Jonestown, Heaven’s Gate, etc), the “weirdness” factor is quite relevant in its classification.
However, if weirdness alone is the determining characteristic of a cult, the Catholic Church could be considered a cult, given some of their strange rituals and beliefs. Does tenancy or how long it’s been around factor into how we classify a religious group? It’s obvious that from a political perspective, the JWs are not considered a cult and are accorded the same rights as any other major religion. I don’t think this would have been the case with the Heaven’s Gate people, for example. Nevertheless, some sociologists will identify certain behavior (the negative aspects) with a “cult” label for a group. These are somewhat different from behaviors that characterize secular cults, such as The Flat Earth Society (http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/) (talk about weird!) For religious groups, it’s the damaging effects that stand out, such as: Intolerance to dissent, strict top-down rule without questioning, elite-ism by having a special class or group within, promoting an us-vs-them mentality (in order to isolate), bringing shame to those who stray, obsession with recruiting new members, etc. (http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm). There are other traits, but I particularly mentioned those that I feel are associated with the JWs. In my mind, it’s important to know who or what it is that I fight about. So, I wondered if we have a more informed understanding of what it is to be a cult, maybe we could simply say that some groups have cult-like practices (given the sociological definitions) or that whatever they are and however unacceptable, such and such is the outcome of what they do (as we might well say about the United States Congress). I suppose that some individuals want to ascribe to the JWs and other groups like them the same stigma as they ascribe to use by calling us apostates (a term that carries a lot of negative connotation). I have been one of those. But, does that work and does any of this discussion change anyone’s mind just slightly? I'm curious.
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A question for former Bethelites
by JeffT inwhat do the wives of the top guys, particularly the gb, do with themselves?
do they have "jobs" of some sort?
are they like uber-co's wifes (boy, that raises some interesting mental images of nosey busy bodies)?
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Etude
BurnTheShips: It shouldn’t surprise you that intelligent people (yes women) would relegate themselves to menial work. Intelligent guys who felt they could do more also relegated themselves to cleaning and sweeping at the factories, taking the chicken shit out of the hen houses at the farm and just doing plain old crappy work. If you look at the efficiency with which Bethel is run, it takes a lot of peons (even bright ones) to make it all happen. Women are no different. Some worked in sensitive and creative positions. Believe me, if a woman was an artist, she would not be housekeeping making up bed sheets with wet dreams but would be in the Art department creating soothing pastoral scenes for the Watchtower. In a way, Bethel was run in my day like any other secular organization.
I suppose that if you look at the work that takes place behind the scenes there as secularly as running a hotel, one would be surprised if people didn’t struggle to get better jobs. While that’s practically what it was, it was wrapped up in a spiritual blanket in order to make it easier to give yourself up as a sacrifice. Still, you had bosses, supervisors and workers. What you did depended on how you showed your talent; whether you had “worldly” credentials (a degree in something went a long way); and yes, whether somebody liked you. Fairness and spirituality, although strongly touted, didn’t always help to get your foot in the door get a better job. And as in any other job, some “sisters” didn’t like or get along with each other. Yet others got choice jobs due to reputation or connections. Some were very unhappy because they wanted more for their lives than just being there because their husbands had “important” work to do. Some had affairs right in Bethel. This is not any different from the rest of the world or even a TV show.
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WOW!!! Just found out from someone who went to the one day assembly....
by Lady Liberty inhello friends... just found out that at the recent one day assembly they are now really discouraging people from getting married!!!!!
they will lose young ones like crazy if they start telling them that they cannot get married...what are these sexually frusterated young people to do??
you cannot masterbate, you cannot have sex outside of marriage (not that i would encourage it either, but...), now you cannot even get married?????
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Etude
A lot of you have it right: This is not new. When I joined the Bethel headquarters in 1974 under Knorr's reign, it was "understood" (meaning it was said but not written anywhere) that we were to remain single, forever if possible, but especially during our 4-year commitment. Remaining in Bethel after that period meant that you had to retain your "single" status or leave. Knorr specifically mentioned this in his address to our in-coming bethelite group. I didn't understand why he was so vehement on this topic when he himself was married. Perhaps his admiration of "Freddy" Franz influenced him in deciding that there's some sort of piety, sacrifice or gain (in the sense the Freddy had come to be the top biblical scholar there at the time) by virtue of being single. If you decided to get married, you had to leave Bethel service. Of course, there were always exceptions if they really needed your talent. But, if you left the service before the 4 years were up, you were less than acceptable because you would not have any privileges when you got back to your old congregation. I guess that was because they felt you broke your promise to God (meaning the Organization). What a crock of you-know-what!
Personally, having been around Knorr I got the impression early on that he was the product of his generation (as opposed to new thinking brought on by his bible understanding) and was rife with all the prejudices that came with the "Leave it to Beaver" attitudes that peaked in the 50's. That the Organization is doing the same thing now is reflective of a similar environment where an older generation that was influenced by its times is trying to dictate its views to a new generation. Aren't we seeing a backlash today in general, especially in conservative religious circles, that is convincing teens to take celibacy vows (ex., the Jonas Brothers and others)? There are significant indications that celibacy doesn't work for teens and that's why other groups advocate for condoms in schools to prevent pregnancies and the spread of disease. But teens will go on screwing like rabbits. Who can contain that dam? If I knew what I know now back in the 60’s, I would have done my best to get all the booty I could (since sex the 60’s was a somewhat safer). I know there are consequences to everything, but at least it would have saved me from being a part of the JWs in the first place.
I don’t think that this “new” message is necessarily strategic for them. I don’t think they’ve really thought it out as much as they’re reacting with the mindset that to “scare” you into submission (however subtly) usually works. In that sense the “new” message is a tactical move and a method on which the WTBTS has always relied on. Yes, they’re losing people and they need to create a sense of urgency to keep what they have and recruit new people, especially in third world countries.
Etude.