Posts by slimboyfat

49

What the Trinitarian perspective on John 8.28?

by slimboyfat in

this is not a verse that i’ve seen feature heavily in trinitarian debates but it seems to me it presents a problem for the trinity.

if there are any around i’d be interested to know your perspective, or anything you can find on the meaning and how it doesn’t contradict the trinity.

the verse says:.

slimboyfat

Scripture shows that God cannot be taught by anyone:

Job 21.22 Can anyone teach knowledge to God, When He is the one who judges even the highest ones?

Isaiah 40.14 With whom did he consult to gain understanding, Or who teaches him in the path of justice, Or teaches him knowledge, Or shows him the way of true understanding?

Jesus says he was taught by God:

John 8.28 Jesus then said: “After you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things.

Therefore Jesus is distinct from and subordinate to God.

49

What the Trinitarian perspective on John 8.28?

by slimboyfat in

this is not a verse that i’ve seen feature heavily in trinitarian debates but it seems to me it presents a problem for the trinity.

if there are any around i’d be interested to know your perspective, or anything you can find on the meaning and how it doesn’t contradict the trinity.

the verse says:.

slimboyfat

Non sequitur. If at the end of my teaching I have transferred all my knowledge to you, then you will have as much knowledge as I previously had.

1. The verse doesn’t say God transferred “all” his knowledge to his Son.

2. Other verses show that God still knew things the Son didn’t know. (Matt 24.36; Rev 1.1)

3. Even if the verse had said that God gave “all” his knowledge to his Son (it doesn’t say that) that would still mean that the Son lacked that knowledge before being taught it.

49

What the Trinitarian perspective on John 8.28?

by slimboyfat in

this is not a verse that i’ve seen feature heavily in trinitarian debates but it seems to me it presents a problem for the trinity.

if there are any around i’d be interested to know your perspective, or anything you can find on the meaning and how it doesn’t contradict the trinity.

the verse says:.

slimboyfat

That the Father "taught" the Son does not mean that He is lesser in knowledge,

I think it means exactly that. You can’t teach somebody something unless you know more than they do. If you can claim otherwise then we might as well give up on language and logic altogether.

49

What the Trinitarian perspective on John 8.28?

by slimboyfat in

this is not a verse that i’ve seen feature heavily in trinitarian debates but it seems to me it presents a problem for the trinity.

if there are any around i’d be interested to know your perspective, or anything you can find on the meaning and how it doesn’t contradict the trinity.

the verse says:.

Not going to dignify inevitable “why are you talking about something I don’t find interesting or useful” posts as anything other than some kind of unwitting cry for help. I don’t go around pointing out threads a don’t find interesting. I just don’t read them. If you are so insecure you can’t bear the thought of other people talking about things you don’t agree with you’ve got your own issues to attend to.

49

What the Trinitarian perspective on John 8.28?

by slimboyfat in

this is not a verse that i’ve seen feature heavily in trinitarian debates but it seems to me it presents a problem for the trinity.

if there are any around i’d be interested to know your perspective, or anything you can find on the meaning and how it doesn’t contradict the trinity.

the verse says:.

slimboyfat

I am not here arguing that God is superior because he “sent” Jesus. I’m arguing that God is superior because he “taught” Jesus before he sent him. In order to teach somebody something you have to tell them something they don’t already know. Therefore God is superior to his Son in knowledge. This contradicts Trinitarian dogma that divine persons are equal in age, power, and knowledge.

49

What the Trinitarian perspective on John 8.28?

by slimboyfat in

this is not a verse that i’ve seen feature heavily in trinitarian debates but it seems to me it presents a problem for the trinity.

if there are any around i’d be interested to know your perspective, or anything you can find on the meaning and how it doesn’t contradict the trinity.

the verse says:.

slimboyfat

Yes I agree Magnum, there are a few texts that are difficult for non Trinitarians to explain. I would add John 20.28 and a few others. But set that against dozens and dozens of passages that show Jesus is separate and subordinate to God in knowledge, power, and age. Even some verses that I once thought were problematic (Heb 1.10 and Rev 22.13) I am now convinced make much more sense from an ‘Arian’ understanding.

49

What the Trinitarian perspective on John 8.28?

by slimboyfat in

this is not a verse that i’ve seen feature heavily in trinitarian debates but it seems to me it presents a problem for the trinity.

if there are any around i’d be interested to know your perspective, or anything you can find on the meaning and how it doesn’t contradict the trinity.

the verse says:.

slimboyfat

All very interesting, but can you answer the question?

When was Jesus “taught” by the Father according to John 8.28? And doesn’t it imply that the Father knew things the Son didn’t know until he taught him?

49

What the Trinitarian perspective on John 8.28?

by slimboyfat in

this is not a verse that i’ve seen feature heavily in trinitarian debates but it seems to me it presents a problem for the trinity.

if there are any around i’d be interested to know your perspective, or anything you can find on the meaning and how it doesn’t contradict the trinity.

the verse says:.

slimboyfat

Okay, is there anywhere in all that which talks about John 8.28?

I think the passage must be talking about Jesus’ prehuman relationship with God because the same passage emphasises that Jesus came “from heaven” and that he was “sent” by God who taught him.

It seems to me this is a real problem for Trinitarians because if Jesus was taught by his Father in heaven then it means that Jesus didn’t know things until God instructed him and therefore God is superior to his Son in knowledge. This is such a straightforward reading of the text it’s difficult to see how it couldn’t be saying that. Yet it’s problematic for the Trinity that maintains the Father is not superior to the Son in knowledge except for a sense limited to when Jesus became a human.

49

What the Trinitarian perspective on John 8.28?

by slimboyfat in

this is not a verse that i’ve seen feature heavily in trinitarian debates but it seems to me it presents a problem for the trinity.

if there are any around i’d be interested to know your perspective, or anything you can find on the meaning and how it doesn’t contradict the trinity.

the verse says:.

slimboyfat

The context of John 8 indicates rather strongly that Jesus was taught by God in heaven before he came to the earth:

23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
25 “Who are you?” they asked.

“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”

27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

49

What the Trinitarian perspective on John 8.28?

by slimboyfat in

this is not a verse that i’ve seen feature heavily in trinitarian debates but it seems to me it presents a problem for the trinity.

if there are any around i’d be interested to know your perspective, or anything you can find on the meaning and how it doesn’t contradict the trinity.

the verse says:.

slimboyfat

I understand that Trinitarians apply subordinationist passages to Jesus’ “human nature” but can you really do that in this passage? Surely the passage is talking about God teaching the Son over aeons of time. Or would you argue this passage only refers to Jesus learning from God as a human during his earthy life? The book of John so often refers to Jesus’ life and relationship with God in heaven (John 1.18; 17.5, and many more), it would be odd if this verse did not refer to that age old relationship between God and his Son too.

In the culture of the time it was completely taken for granted that a father and son are not equals, because a father is older than his son, and he is wiser and more knowledgable than his son. This context underlies all the descriptions of Jesus and God as Father and Son. It’s only later Christians came to define God and his Son in terms of essence and nature and substance and begin to deny basic understanding that a father is superior to his son in age, wisdom and knowledge.