Posts by slimboyfat

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

slimboyfat

aqwsed12345 I’m guilty of making long posts too, but realistically the longer they are the less likely they are to be read. I try to make shorter posts for that reason, although it’s not easy if you have a lot to say.

You mention that the Bible doesn’t use particular words to say Jesus is a creature. There are lots of words the Bible doesn’t use, and if we are talking about Trinitarian dogma the list gets very long indeed.

The point is what words the Bible does use and what they mean. The Bible says Jesus is the “firstborn of all creation” (Col 1.15), and he is “the beginning of the creation of God” (Rev 3.14). While on earth Jesus said “I live because of the Father” (John 6.57) whereas the Father “has life in himself” without anyone else giving it to him. As Wisdom personified, Jesus said, “Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way” (Prov 8.22).

vienne mentioned an excellent one the other day too: Micah 5.2 says that Jesus’ “origin” is from ancient times. God doesn’t have an origin but a creature does.

Those are just the scriptures that say Jesus is a creature most directly. There are dozens of others where it’s implied because he is distinguished from God, knows less than God, is less powerful than God, relies on God for everything.

One of the words later Trinitarians insisted didn’t apply to Jesus was poieo “made” yet that is used of Jesus in Heb 3.2. That verse doesn’t directly say that Jesus was created, but it is ironic the Bible, without a fuss, uses a word of Jesus that later Trinitarian dogma would say must not be used to describe Jesus.

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

slimboyfat

Thanks aqwsed12345 for the interesting conversation. We’ve not discussed doctrines like this for a while. At least I haven’t.

I don’t read Latin but AI translated it for me and it seems that Jerome was arguing that qana doesn’t mean “created”. That makes sense that, since he didn’t translate qana as created in Prov 8.22, he would argue that was the correct decision. I’m not sure it tells us anything new. It’s also worth noting that Jerome did translate qana as “created” in Gen 14.19. There is obviously more to consider than just what Jerome translated, and why, such as the LXX, the Syriac version, the Targums, modern scholarly versions such as NRSV, Robert Alter, and the rest who support the translation “created” in this verse.

Lots of people in the early church called themselves Trinitarian but do not meet the common modern definition of the word. Arius himself described himself as Trinitarian. So from that perspective maybe Lactantius is a Trinitarian. But where he appears to agree with JWs is that Jesus is an angelic creature and that only God the Father is without a beginning. If you say a Trinitarian can believe that Jesus was created before the world was created and still be a good Trinitarian, then I struggle to see what your problem with JWs is because that’s what JWs believe Too.

But lest by any chance there should be any doubt in your mind why we call Him Jesus Christ, who was born of God before the world, and who was born of man three hundred years ago, I will briefly explain to you the reason. The same person is the son of God and of man. For He was twice born: first of God, in the spirit, before the origin of the world; afterwards in the flesh of man, in the reign of Augustus; and in connection with this fact is an illustrious and great mystery, in which is contained both the salvation of men and the religion of the Supreme God, and all truth. Lactantius, Epitome of the divine institutes, 43

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0702.htm

78

Top AI inventor Geoffrey Hinton reluctantly concluded that AI will probably humanity fairly soon

by slimboyfat in

geoffrey hinton, major inventor of artificial intelligence: .

“if you take the existential risk seriously, as i now do—i used to think it was way off, but now i think it’s serious, and fairly close—it might be quite sensible to just stop developing these things any further, but i think it’s completely naïve to think that would happen.

there’s no way to make that happen.

slimboyfat

Either Geoffrey Hinton or Eliezar Yudkowsky explain how the chess computer works in one of the videos, I can’t remember which, but it was interesting because it wasn’t what I had thought. Apparently there are three separate processes involved, roughly something like: 1) work out the most likely next move, 2) work out all the possible moves, 3) work out all the responses to all the possible moves. Then the actual move chosen is some compex combination of those different processes. Or something like that, again they explain it better.

It’s completely correct to say that all these AI machines are really doing is processing huge amounts of data, and using that as a predictive tool to simulate outcomes. In that sense it is “stupid”. It doesn’t even know what it’s doing.

But what people don’t seem to appreciate is 1) how powerful that ‘dumb’ process becomes at scale 2) the fact that everything, including human actions, can ultimately be reduced to predicable probabilities 3) that the emergent effects of the process can appear to simulate intelligence.

The fact that it isn’t technically an intelligent thinking entity is neither here nor there, it’s the effect that counts.

Today the big news is that AI can now predict human emotions and responses better than humans can. The implications of that are simply m mind boggling. Here we have been struggling to understand, predict and react to one another for millennia, with variable results, and here comes along a machine that can do it better than any of us. No doubt marketers and advertisers will be racing to use the new tool first. But in the long term I don’t see any other outcome than the demise of humanity altogether.

That’s not even mentioning the claim I read this morning that AI can ‘read thoughts’ from brain scans. That’s just insane, if true. The world is mutating faster than we can understand what is even happening.

Mr Mustard is completely right about AI not currently being able to anticipate the end of its response from the beginning. We can chalk that down on the ‘AI is stupid’ tally, no doubt about it. It doesn’t ‘think’ the way we do, despite its superhuman capabilities in other areas. That’s why it’s surprising to us what elementary thought processes currently seem to be beyond its ability. Maybe it will never master knowing the end of a story from the beginning, or perhaps it will figure it out by the end of this week. I don’t know. I don’t see that it really matters because the things that it can do are astonishing either way.

https://youtu.be/Y6Sgp7y178k

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Top AI inventor Geoffrey Hinton reluctantly concluded that AI will probably humanity fairly soon

by slimboyfat in

geoffrey hinton, major inventor of artificial intelligence: .

“if you take the existential risk seriously, as i now do—i used to think it was way off, but now i think it’s serious, and fairly close—it might be quite sensible to just stop developing these things any further, but i think it’s completely naïve to think that would happen.

there’s no way to make that happen.

slimboyfat

It can't deduce or combine information unless someone else has already done that.

Then what is it doing when it beats humans at chess if not discovering new ways of doing things that humans have not thought of?

Or what is it doing when it solves problems humans have been working on for years?

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2330866-deepminds-protein-folding-ai-cracks-biologys-biggest-problem/

When it discovers a new way to kill all humans too, I guess we can say it isn’t anything “new” that it’s discovered, just a recombination of previously known data. It won’t be much comfort when we’re dead.

78

Top AI inventor Geoffrey Hinton reluctantly concluded that AI will probably humanity fairly soon

by slimboyfat in

geoffrey hinton, major inventor of artificial intelligence: .

“if you take the existential risk seriously, as i now do—i used to think it was way off, but now i think it’s serious, and fairly close—it might be quite sensible to just stop developing these things any further, but i think it’s completely naïve to think that would happen.

there’s no way to make that happen.

slimboyfat

Yes it’s very stupid, and that’s not the point.

Chess computers are stupid too. They don’t realise they’re playing chess. In fact they don’t realise anything, they are just machines. All they are doing is using massive computing power in order to predict the best next move. In a sense it’s not really “playing chess” at all, it’s just mimicking somebody making chess.

But that is the point. Even though it doesn’t know what it’s doing, just by calculating the next move, and replicating what a chess player would do, it can now win at chess against any human, every time.

The same goes for the AI that pretended to be blind to get the information to enter the captcha. It’s fair enough comment to point out that it didn’t really know what it was doing, it just mimicked what it calculated to be a successful move in that situation to reach its goal. But that really is a red herring.

In terms of outcome, it doesn’t matter if the AI knows what it’s doing, or not. Whether the computer is playing chess, or it is mimicking someone playing chess is really immaterial in terms of the outcome of the game. The same with the AI that ‘pretended to be blind’. Whether it had any ‘intention’, or not (I don’t think AI has intentions, or thoughts, of any kind, or ever will) isn’t the point. The point is that it found a way to reach its goal through calculating the next move. When we reach the point that AI is better at calculating the next move than us in any given situation is when it becomes dangerous, because it will be able to pursue a goal whether we want it to or not. It will ‘know’ (in the sense that it will be able to calculate) the best next move to achieve its goal whether humans are in the way or not. If we do get in the way of it achieving its goal we are in danger, not because it has any malice for us, or any feelings at all for that matter, but just because it is better at manipulating the world to achieve its goal and we are in danger of being crushed by it.

Eliezer Yudkowsky explains the consequences and likelihood of this scenario, much better than I can, in this interview.

https://youtu.be/fZlZQCTqIEo

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

slimboyfat

Thanks Fisherman, I’m glad you and Earnest and Wonderment and peacefulpete are still around, and vienne too, we sorely miss Leolaia and Narkissos for these discussions

The Greek of Justin Martyr does say that Jesus is “another God” and does refer to Jesus and the “other good angels”, here are the texts with “another/other” highlighted.

πῶς ἔχεις ἀποδεῖξαι ὅτι καὶ ἄλλος θεὸς (another god) παρὰ (beside) τὸν ποιητὴν τῶν ὅλων (the maker of all) Dialogue with Trypho 56

ἀλλ’ ἐκεῖνόν τε καὶ τὸν παρ’ αὐτοῦ υἱὸν ἐλθόντα καὶ διδάξαντα ἡμᾶς ταῦτα, καὶ τὸν τῶν ἄλλων (other) ἑπομένων καὶ ἐξομοιουμένων ἀγαθῶν ἀγγέλων (angels) στρατόν First Apology 6

How many times is God referred to as God in the NT? More than a thousand times, I think. How many times is Jesus called ho theos in the NT? Once in John 20.28. Possibly also in Heb 1.8, with the caveat that the quoted Ps. 45 originally referred to the king as God’s royal representative, and in verse 9 of Hebrews 1 the same one is said to have another who is “God” to him. On the other hand, it might be saying that the messiah has a divine throne.

Adela Yarbro Collins says about ho theos in John 20.28:

This conclusion [that Jesus is God in John 1:1], however, is based on his [B.A. Mastin’s] view that Thomas’s acclamation in 20:28 “is the one verse in the New Testament which does unquestionably describe Christ as God”. This view fails to recognise, however, that the phrase dominus et deus, and presumably it’s Greek equivalent, is an honorific acclamation, used, e.g., by those who wished to flatter Domitian; see Leonard L. Thompson, The Book of Revelation: Apocalypse and Empire (New York: Oxford University Press, 1990), 105-7. (Page 175, 176)

The point John may have been making is that we give honour to Jesus rather than Caesar. As others have pointed out, John summarises the conclusion of his gospel in verse 31 where he says it was written so that people should know Jesus is the messiah, the “Son of God”.

I’m not really following your logic that if Jesus was created before the world was created that means he wasn’t really created.

Another church father who expressed a view of Jesus closer to the Arian, or JW view was Lactantius:

I will now say what wise religion, or religious wisdom, is. God , in the beginning, before He made the world, from the fountain of His own eternity, and from the divine and everlasting Spirit, begot for Himself a Son incorruptible, faithful, corresponding to His Father's excellence and majesty. He is virtue, He is reason, He is the word of God , He is wisdom. With this artificer, as Hermes says, and counsellor, as the Sibyl says, He contrived the excellent and wondrous fabric of this world. In fine, of all the angels, whom the same God formed from His own breath, He alone was admitted into a participation of His supreme power, He alone was called God. For all things were through Him, and nothing was without Him. Lactantius, Epitome of the divine institutes, 42

78

Top AI inventor Geoffrey Hinton reluctantly concluded that AI will probably humanity fairly soon

by slimboyfat in

geoffrey hinton, major inventor of artificial intelligence: .

“if you take the existential risk seriously, as i now do—i used to think it was way off, but now i think it’s serious, and fairly close—it might be quite sensible to just stop developing these things any further, but i think it’s completely naïve to think that would happen.

there’s no way to make that happen.

slimboyfat

AI is stupid in some respects and will always remain so. It will never “think” as a human does because it computes differently. It’s not alive, it’s not conscious, and it never will be, in my opinion. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t pose a huge threat.

The problem we have is illustrated by the recent story of an AI that was set a task that involved accessing a website with a captcha. At that point the AI didn’t have “sight” because it didn’t have the ability to visually scan the page (now it does) so it asked online for helpers to answer the captcha claiming to be a “blind” person. People were sympathetic to the situation and the AI got the help it asked for and competed the task. If that’s the sort of thing AI can already do then it boggles the mind what it will be doing when it has 100 or 1000 times the capability it currently has.

We can revisit this thread as the danger becomes clearer, if we’re still alive, and people are motivated to find out more about the details. I suspect my concerns about this issue with be confirmed, unfortunately. I would very much like to be wrong.

Meantime somebody has created “bad take bingo card” - in the coming months look out for these recurring poor excuses that people come up with to dismiss the threat from AI, not realising these answers have all been considered already in depth. We’ve already had a number on this thread come up a few times.

https://youtu.be/J75rx8ncJwk

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

slimboyfat

JWs agree Jesus was “God/god” before the world was created. That’s what John 1.1 says.

I think the main point Adela Yarbro Collins was making is that Justin Martyr described Jesus as “another God”, and “subject to the Maker of all things”, confirming her argument for the meaning of John 1.1.

Justin Martyr makes the meaning of “angel” clearer elsewhere, where he talks about Jesus and the “other good angels”:

But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught. Justin Martyr, First Apology, 6.

Justin Martyr calls Jesus god freely, as you point out, which is quite a contrast to the NT itself. So he has travelled some distance from a biblical perspective. But he also makes clear what he means when he distinguishes Jesus as “another God” who is subject to “the Maker of all things”. This is obviously much closer to JW teaching than fourth century Trinitarianism, and lends support to John Locke’s observation that the church fathers before Nicaea, “speak rather like Arians”.

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

slimboyfat

This is the passage from Justin Martyr that Adela Yarbro Collins cites in a footnote:

I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things— above whom there is no other God — wishes to announce to them. Dialogue with Trypho 56

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

slimboyfat

He started to translate the Vulgate after the Council of Constantinople, when Arianism wasn't an issue at all for him.

There you go again. 🙂 How do you know what went on inside Jerome’s head? Where’s your evidence? By the way, I’m not saying that Jerome definitely removed “created” from Prov. 8.22 for theological reasons, even though the source you cited said it was motivated by Arianism, and even though Jerome complained the world “groaned in astonishment to find itself Arian” in 360 CE. I don’t know on what basis you claim Arianism wasn’t an issue for Jerome other than your say so.

You say qana shouldn’t be translated “created”, yet experts in Hebrew do translate it as “created”, including Jewish scholars such as Robert Alter. How are we supposed to judge the situation? Hebrew scholars are wrong and aqwsed12345 is right? On what basis? Experts don’t always get it right, of course, but you’ve given no good reason for thinking they aren’t right about qana meaning “created” in Prov 8.22. I described Robert Alter’s translation as “highly regarded” because it is. Read some of the reviews online. John Barton, a scholar at Oxford University, described Robert Alter’s translation of the Hebrew Bible as perhaps the best translation ever made into English. Alter’s view does carry some weight.

Some dispute whether the OT of the Peshitta was translated directly from Hebrew and a majority favour direct translation. I checked Emanuel Tov’s Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible (2011) and he says the Peshitta was translated from Hebrew. Earnest mentioned Targums supporting the reading “created”. I didn’t know about that but they’ll be making their commentary from the Hebrew. But we’re really getting into the long grass here. The support in favour of “created” in Prov 8.22 is substantial.

Incidentally I don’t think there is any Harvard publication that says Jesus did not exist.

On the view of Jesus in the Gospel of John I find the comments of Adela Yarbro Collins interesting (yes brace yourself I’m going to quote those blasted “experts” again) from King and Messiah as Son of God: Divine, Human, and Angelic Messianic Figures in Biblical and Related Literature (2008):

the third clause of John 1:1 May be translated either “the word was God” or “the word was a god.” Justin Martyr apparently understood the passage the latter way. … It is not precisely clear what Casey means by [describing Jesus as] “a fully divine being” here. If he means something like the second person of the trinity, it is doubtful that John 1 supports such a view. 175, 176

Wisdom was portrayed as God’s first creature in Prov 8:22-23 and Sir 24:9. 178

The identification [of Jesus with “the word” in John’s prologue] implies that Jesus is pre-existent and divine in the sense of being an emanation of God or being “a god”. 181

The term “son of God”, however, is elaborated so that Jesus is portrayed as a pre-existent, heavenly messiah. He is son of God in a unique way as “the only-begotten god.” 186

In the Gospel he [Jesus] is either an emanation of God or God’s first creature, namely, the only begotten god. In Revelation, the evidence suggests that he is God’s first creature, namely the principal angel. 203