slimboyfat

Joined

• started 536 topics
• posted 17,587 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by slimboyfat

• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  The evidence of the Tetragrammaton being used in the Septuagint is unconvincing. What I mean by that is that it does not appear that this was the norm in the first century. It seems likely that a few wealthy individuals who had a fixation for the divine name may have paid to have specialty copies containing the Tetragrammaton in Hebrew letters.

  Where is your evidence for these assertions?

  To be clear, the divine name occurs in every single pre-Christian copy of the LXX containing passages with the divine name. Not a single copy from this period has yet been discovered which replaces the divine name with Lord. That is the weight of evidence you are arguing against when making such bald assertions.

  So it is interesting that you dismiss all the early textual LXX evidence as irrelevant in favour of a novel theory (did you come up with this? I don't remember reading it anywhere in the scholarly literature) about "a few"(!) wealthy Jews with a "fixation" sponsoring texts using the divine name. What incredible nonsense. Where do you get these ideas? Please cite your sources.

  Do you know better than leading LXX scholars such as Kahle, Tov and Skehan who have argued (unsurprisingly in view of the overwhelming evidence) that the early LXX used forms of the divine name rather Lord? And if only JW style "superstition" could lead one to support the divine name in NT, apart from George Howard, how do you account for the work of Trobisch and Gaston who also support the divine name in the original NT?

  You argue like someone who has read the rhetoric of evangelical polemics such as Lundquisf or Doug Harris, but not read any of the scholarly discussion of the issue.

  jwfacts can you please tell me how you think the divine name was represented in the original NT writings?
  
  
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  no evidence of the divine name being in the New Testament.

  Oh for crying out loud. Just because you don't accept the evidence doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There is plenty of evidence including how the LXX of the same period treated the divine name, statements in the NT about the divine name, the actual physical presence of the divine name in Revelation 19, allusion to it in Revelation 14, variants involving Kyrios, Jewish references to gospels with the divine name, plus a number of scholars who support the divine name in the NT. Apart from all that evidence, and much more, you're completely right, there's "no evidence".
  
  
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  Well I'm convinced! Get me back to the Kingdom Hall...

  I've long suspected that you're a bit too easily easily convinced or swayed in general, but nevertheless welcome to the fold! I won't look a gifthorse in the mouth.
  
  
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  jwfacts George Howard stood by his argument presented in 1977 as is demonstrated by his article on the divine name in Anchor Bible dictionary in 1992. Plus you've not mentioned Trobisch who argues for the divine name in the NT in more definite terms, or Gaston who agrees with Howard, or Shaw who argues for the persistence of the divine name.

  It should be "obvious" that a scholar who argues for a position agrees with the position he is arguing for. The only weird thing is that it even seems necessary to point it out.
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  Cofty there is no meaningful distinction between "moniker" and reputation or name. The two are bound together in the NT and Jewish writings of the period. When anyone talked about the name of God they naturally thought of the distinctive Jewish name for the almighty. Even the Jews who avoided using the name did so precisely out of reverence, not because it had been forgotten or superseded, or lost in a general haze of reputational "naminess", as Reachout style pseudoscholarship would have us believe.

  When Jesus is said to have made God's name known it indicated both that Jesus magnified God and his reputation, and pointed to the distinct Jewish name for God. The two are inseparable and complementary.

  Otherwise what's the alternative? That Jesus, a first century Jew, intended to make God's name known precisely by neglecting the distinctive Jewish name for God? It doesn't even make sense outside Reachout and evangelical type rhetoric.

  And the imagery of Revelation 14:1 clearly demonstrates that when NT authors talk about God's name they have the Tetragrammaton in mind,
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  jwfawcts much has been made of the fact George Howard presented his idea as a "theory". It's true he wasn't dogmatic, he didn't need to be. He wasn't a JW and his faith didn't depend on it. But did he believe he was correct about the divine name in the NT? Well obviously he did or else why make the argument and assemble all the evidence to make his case? Plus his later work continued the theme as he attempted to demonstrate that an early form of the book of Matthew in Hebrew used the divine name.

  Additinally David Trobisch and Lloyd Gaston are more definite about the NT containing the divine name than George Howard was. Plus the work of Frank Shaw is suggestive as regards the divine name in early Christianity.

  There is a lot of evidence for the divine name in the NT, including scribal practice in the period, statements about the divine name in the NT, continued Jewish use of IAW and other forms, the nomina sacra in early Christian manuscripts, the high number of variants involving Kyrios, Jewish statements about the divine name in gospels, removal of the divine name from the later LXX and so on.

  You should acknowledge that there is a lot of evidence for the divine name in the NT, even if you personally don't find the evidence compelling. The unthinking mantra "there is no evidence" is false and empty evangelical apologetic rhetoric.
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  Yes Acts 4:12 talks about the place of Jesus as the name given under heaven to bring salvation. And Acts 15 talks about Jehovah selecting a people for his name from the nations. Two distinct names with explicit explantion of the role of each in one Bible book.

  What's wrong with quoting a text from the NWT that supports the argument? Weird complaint.

  It seems to me you've imbided fully of Doug Harris ("Father" is the new name for God in the NT) variety of pseudo-scholarship.
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  Cofty weird to get into theological debate with you, but a few things to consider.

  The very name Jesus in itself directs attention to Jehovah God because it means Jehovah the saviour. Any glory, honour or service through Jesus is to Jehovah.

  Jesus is said to be given the highest name in Phil 2 which is presumably the name of God.

  Revelation 14 describes Jehovah God and Jesus Christ as having their names written on the foreheads of the anointed.

  None of this suggests in any way that the name Jesus was intended to replace or supersede Jehovah.

  Additionally texts including the divine name are quoted repeatedly in the NT. And the evidence suggests the authors of the NT would have had access to OT copies that used the divine name in those places.

  Most crucially the book of Acts repeatedly quotes verses concerning the divine name. Concerning Jesus the book of Acts states:

  Acts 4:12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”

  And about Jehovah it says:

  Acts 15:13 After they finished speaking, James replied: “Men, brothers, hear me. Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written: 'After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that is fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, so that the men who remain may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, known from of old.’
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  jwfacts there is a lot of evidence for the divine name in the original New Testament. How else do you explain that at least 3 non-JW scholars have arrived at the same conclusion, citing lots of evidence for the position? I think what you mean is that no New Testament manuscript containing the divine name has yet been recovered. The WT Society acknowledge this. But it's not the only thing to consider. As I pointed out above, the KS nomina sacra form is the earliest attested representation of the divine name in the NT, yet scholars tend to assume Kyrios written in full was original. So apparently early NT manuscripts are not conclusive, no matter which side of the fence you find yourself.
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  jpw1692 interesting that Shaw also mentions Rastafarians and the Sacred Name movement, along with JWs, to illustrate modern diversity of use of the divine name, comparing it with diversity in ancient times.

  Also if JWs are right about the divine name, I'd suggest that the closely related issues surrounding the Trinity and the nature of God are likely to be correct as well.

  As JWs never tire of pointing out, names do change in translation, including the name Jesus. This does not make the use of the name in other languages somehow invalid.

  Londo111

  
  

  While there are a few copies of the Septuagint where YHWH was used

  Not just a few copies, but in fact every single surviving pre-Christian copy that preserves text including the divine name uses a form of the name rather than Lord.

  there is no positive proof that YHWH appeared in the New Testament or that early Christian groups used the divine name. There is conjecture and guesswork by some scholars, but that is not positive evidence that firmly establishes it.

  It's not conclusive at this point but it's better than guesswork, and the evidence is mounting. Plus other scholars suggest that Kyrios, written in full, was original, whereas the earliest copies contain nomina sacra abbreviated forms. So whichever form is original - YHWH, Iao, or Kyrios - the original form does not appear in the earliest NT fragments that survive.

  cobweb, lemonjuice and steve2 some argue for three syllables, like Nehemiah Gordon, but pronunciation can vary for names over time and in different languages.