slimboyfat

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Posts by slimboyfat

• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
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• 

  slimboyfat

  Well I'm convinced! Get me back to the Kingdom Hall...

  I've long suspected that you're a bit too easily easily convinced or swayed in general, but nevertheless welcome to the fold! I won't look a gifthorse in the mouth.
  
  
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  jwfacts George Howard stood by his argument presented in 1977 as is demonstrated by his article on the divine name in Anchor Bible dictionary in 1992. Plus you've not mentioned Trobisch who argues for the divine name in the NT in more definite terms, or Gaston who agrees with Howard, or Shaw who argues for the persistence of the divine name.

  It should be "obvious" that a scholar who argues for a position agrees with the position he is arguing for. The only weird thing is that it even seems necessary to point it out.
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  Cofty there is no meaningful distinction between "moniker" and reputation or name. The two are bound together in the NT and Jewish writings of the period. When anyone talked about the name of God they naturally thought of the distinctive Jewish name for the almighty. Even the Jews who avoided using the name did so precisely out of reverence, not because it had been forgotten or superseded, or lost in a general haze of reputational "naminess", as Reachout style pseudoscholarship would have us believe.

  When Jesus is said to have made God's name known it indicated both that Jesus magnified God and his reputation, and pointed to the distinct Jewish name for God. The two are inseparable and complementary.

  Otherwise what's the alternative? That Jesus, a first century Jew, intended to make God's name known precisely by neglecting the distinctive Jewish name for God? It doesn't even make sense outside Reachout and evangelical type rhetoric.

  And the imagery of Revelation 14:1 clearly demonstrates that when NT authors talk about God's name they have the Tetragrammaton in mind,
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  jwfawcts much has been made of the fact George Howard presented his idea as a "theory". It's true he wasn't dogmatic, he didn't need to be. He wasn't a JW and his faith didn't depend on it. But did he believe he was correct about the divine name in the NT? Well obviously he did or else why make the argument and assemble all the evidence to make his case? Plus his later work continued the theme as he attempted to demonstrate that an early form of the book of Matthew in Hebrew used the divine name.

  Additinally David Trobisch and Lloyd Gaston are more definite about the NT containing the divine name than George Howard was. Plus the work of Frank Shaw is suggestive as regards the divine name in early Christianity.

  There is a lot of evidence for the divine name in the NT, including scribal practice in the period, statements about the divine name in the NT, continued Jewish use of IAW and other forms, the nomina sacra in early Christian manuscripts, the high number of variants involving Kyrios, Jewish statements about the divine name in gospels, removal of the divine name from the later LXX and so on.

  You should acknowledge that there is a lot of evidence for the divine name in the NT, even if you personally don't find the evidence compelling. The unthinking mantra "there is no evidence" is false and empty evangelical apologetic rhetoric.
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  Yes Acts 4:12 talks about the place of Jesus as the name given under heaven to bring salvation. And Acts 15 talks about Jehovah selecting a people for his name from the nations. Two distinct names with explicit explantion of the role of each in one Bible book.

  What's wrong with quoting a text from the NWT that supports the argument? Weird complaint.

  It seems to me you've imbided fully of Doug Harris ("Father" is the new name for God in the NT) variety of pseudo-scholarship.
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  Cofty weird to get into theological debate with you, but a few things to consider.

  The very name Jesus in itself directs attention to Jehovah God because it means Jehovah the saviour. Any glory, honour or service through Jesus is to Jehovah.

  Jesus is said to be given the highest name in Phil 2 which is presumably the name of God.

  Revelation 14 describes Jehovah God and Jesus Christ as having their names written on the foreheads of the anointed.

  None of this suggests in any way that the name Jesus was intended to replace or supersede Jehovah.

  Additionally texts including the divine name are quoted repeatedly in the NT. And the evidence suggests the authors of the NT would have had access to OT copies that used the divine name in those places.

  Most crucially the book of Acts repeatedly quotes verses concerning the divine name. Concerning Jesus the book of Acts states:

  Acts 4:12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”

  And about Jehovah it says:

  Acts 15:13 After they finished speaking, James replied: “Men, brothers, hear me. Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written: 'After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that is fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, so that the men who remain may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, known from of old.’
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  jwfacts there is a lot of evidence for the divine name in the original New Testament. How else do you explain that at least 3 non-JW scholars have arrived at the same conclusion, citing lots of evidence for the position? I think what you mean is that no New Testament manuscript containing the divine name has yet been recovered. The WT Society acknowledge this. But it's not the only thing to consider. As I pointed out above, the KS nomina sacra form is the earliest attested representation of the divine name in the NT, yet scholars tend to assume Kyrios written in full was original. So apparently early NT manuscripts are not conclusive, no matter which side of the fence you find yourself.
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  jpw1692 interesting that Shaw also mentions Rastafarians and the Sacred Name movement, along with JWs, to illustrate modern diversity of use of the divine name, comparing it with diversity in ancient times.

  Also if JWs are right about the divine name, I'd suggest that the closely related issues surrounding the Trinity and the nature of God are likely to be correct as well.

  As JWs never tire of pointing out, names do change in translation, including the name Jesus. This does not make the use of the name in other languages somehow invalid.

  Londo111

  
  

  While there are a few copies of the Septuagint where YHWH was used

  Not just a few copies, but in fact every single surviving pre-Christian copy that preserves text including the divine name uses a form of the name rather than Lord.

  there is no positive proof that YHWH appeared in the New Testament or that early Christian groups used the divine name. There is conjecture and guesswork by some scholars, but that is not positive evidence that firmly establishes it.

  It's not conclusive at this point but it's better than guesswork, and the evidence is mounting. Plus other scholars suggest that Kyrios, written in full, was original, whereas the earliest copies contain nomina sacra abbreviated forms. So whichever form is original - YHWH, Iao, or Kyrios - the original form does not appear in the earliest NT fragments that survive.

  cobweb, lemonjuice and steve2 some argue for three syllables, like Nehemiah Gordon, but pronunciation can vary for names over time and in different languages.
  
  
  
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  Ah when the negative arrives, the Cofty comment inevitably follows shortly after...

  Where is your evidence that Jesus using the divine name would have caused an argument? The idea that using the divine name was totally forbidden in that period rests on various false assumptions such as that the LXX had eliminated the name. The evidence from LXX fragments, classical authors, onomastica and other Jewish and Christian sources assembled and analysed in the book The Earliest Non-Mystical Jewish Use of Iao, demonstrates the continued use of forms of the divine name in the first century.
• 
  332

  The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections.

  but the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of jehovah's name.. .

  i'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of jw events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  slimboyfat

  Jehovah's Witnesses have had to revise their chronology and various doctrinal interpretations due to events and scholarly corrections. But the one teaching where they have been consistently ahead of the curve is the importance of Jehovah's name.

  
  

  I'm going to run through a (necessarily selective) timeline of JW events and scholarly publications that demonstrate the phenomenal success of this teaching in the last days. At the end I'll mention a fascinating new book that helps support some of the key claims JWs make about the divine name, and discuss the implications.

  
  

  1931 - JWs change their name to reflect the growing importance of God's name in their message

  
  

  1939 - fragments of the early Septuagint (LXX) - Fouad 266 with the divine name in the form of the tetragram are discovered in Egypt

  
  

  1944 - a few of the fragments containing the tetragram are published by W G Waddell in the Journal of Theological Studies

  
  

  1948 - realising the significance of this find, the WT Society sent two Gilead missionaries to photograph the rest of the fragments

  
  

  1950 - the NWT of the New Testament was released using the divine name in the NT partly on the basis of the evidence from papyrus manuscript Fouad 266 and included photographs of the fragments

  
  

  The NWT was not the first Bible translation to use the divine name in the NT. The translation by Herman Heinfetter and the Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson had used the divine name. And many foreign language Bibles use the divine name in the New Testament. Nevertheless it is fair to describe the NWT as groundbreaking in its treatment of the divine name for a number of reasons:

  
  

  1. It was the first systematic defence and implementation of the restoration of the divine name to the New Testament.

  
  

  2. Whereas other translations that use the divine name in the NT are relatively obscure, the NWT has become one of the most popular and ubiquitous modern translations available.

  
  

  3. The NWT is inextricably linked with "the people for his name" that God has called in the last days.

  
  

  4. The NWT explicitly drew upon recent LXX findings as supporting the continued use of the divine name into the NT era

  
  

  5. In the years that followed its publication in 1950 more discoveries and scholarly research supported the NWT's use of the divine name

  
  

  1953 - Walter Martin publishes his Jehorvah of the Watchtower which ridicules the idea that God's name belongs in the NT

  
  

  1953 - Patrick Skehan publishes an early fragment of Leviticus in Greek that uses IAW for the divine name and he suggests this was the original form of the divine name in the LXX rather than Kyrios or YHWH

  
  

  1960 - the compete NWT is released restoring the divine name to both old and new testaments

  
  

  1963 - a scroll of the Minor Prophets from the Dead Sea containing the tetragram is published by Dominique Barthélemy adding more evidence for the use of the divine name in the LXX

  
  

  1977 - Bible scholar George Howard publishes article in the Journal of Biblical Literature not only agreeing with JWs that the divine name appeared in the original NT, but supplying additional lines of support and arguing that the removal of the divine name from the NT resulted in confusion between Jesus and Jehovah and later Trinitarian dogma

  
  

  1978 - The Watchtower proudly promotes the work of George Howard as an answer to critics like Walter Martin

  
  

  1983 - a Greek fragment of Job from the Oxyrhynchus papyri containing the tetragram is published adding further support

  
  

  1984 - Bible scholar Albert Pietersma in his essay “Kyrios or Tetragram: A Renewed Quest for the Original New Testament” attempts to refute George Howard by arguing that, contrary to MS evidence, the original LXX used "Lord" instead of the tetragram. Many scholars follow Pietersma’s lead and go back to supporting the traditional view that the early LXX avoided God’s name.

  
  

  1984 - Jehovah's Witnesses publish the booklet The Divine Name that will Endure Forever setting out the importance of the divine name and its use in all parts of the Bible

  
  

  1987 - Bible scholar Lloyd Gaston in his book Paul and the Torah supports George Howard’s argument that the divine name appeared in the original NT

  
  

  2000 - New Testament scholar David Trobisch publishes his book The First Edition of the New Testament in English where he argues in favour of the divine name in original NT writings
  

  2002 - Classical scholar Frank Shaw completes his PhD thesis arguing that the divine name was used by Jews at the turn of the era in non-mystical settings

  
  

  2003 - Senior scholar of the LXX Emanuel Tov publishes comments stating that he finds Pietersma's argument against the divine name in in the initial LXX unconvincing

  
  

  2003 - Manichaean scholar Jason BeDuhn praises the NWT as the most accurate modern translation in his book Truth in Translation but argues that the inclusion of the divine name in the NT is a mistake

  
  

  2011 - yet another fragment of the early LXX is published supporting the use of the tetragram this time from the Psalms

  
  

  2013 - the revised edition of the NWT reaffirms the importance and use of the divine name in the NT and adds further support

  
  

  2014 - excellent new book is published on the divine name: The Earliest Non-Mystical Jewish Use of IAW by Frank Shaw adds tremendous detailed support for the use of the divine name among Jews at the turn of the era

  
  

  The view of JWs that the divine name continued to be used in the first century has been corroborated by various manuscript discoveries over the decades. Their argument that this means the divine name appeared in the original NT has been supported by scholars George Howard, Lloyd Gaston and David Trobisch.

  
  

  The new book on the divine name by Frank Shaw does not argue dogmatically for the divine name in the NT. That is not the focus of the book. What it does do is masterfully refute many of the contentions of those who have downplayed the importance and relevance of the divine name. It shows that the Greek form of the divine name IAW was used by Jews in and around the first century; that this use was widespread and not confined to mystical contexts; that the early LXX did not eliminate the divine name; and that awareness and use of the divine name continued into the Christian Era. It draws on a tremendous amount of new evidence and gathers together disparate scholarly work in favour of the continued importance of divine name in the period.

  
  

  Particularly fascinating is the chapter on the use of the IAW form of the divine name in Christian onomastica. These were early lists of names, sometimes described as rudimentary Bible encyclopaedias, copied by early Christians. Crucially these early fragments show that Christians were aware of the divine name and that biblical texts were the source of this knowledge.

  
  

  Another interesting chapter explores the evidence from classical authors that Jews continued to use the divine name. Plus an entire chapter is devoted to refuting the common, but rather incredible view, of Pietersma and others that the LXX essentially eliminated the divine name with only a few revisionist exceptions (such as all the fragments that have come to light). It's hard to escape the conclusion that religious considerations must be involved in some scholars downplaying the importance of the divine name against the flow of considerable evidence here. Once again Shaw is not dogmatic about the original form of the divine name in the LXX, if it makes sense to even talk about an original form. Instead he notes the fragmentary nature of the historical traces and the evidence for variety of usage in Jewish practice. But Shaw is also clear about the lack of evidence for the traditional view that the early LXX had essentially eliminated the divine name.

  
  

  https://www.amazon.com/Earliest-Non-Mystical-Contributions-Biblical-Exegesis/dp/9042929782/
  

  
  

  All this tends to support some very important distinctive claims of Jehovah's Witnesses. In particular their contention that the divine name was still in use in Jesus’ time and that Christians continued to use the divine name.

  
  

  For atheists and others who do not regard the Bible as inspired, the question whether Jehovah's Witnesses are right about the original New Testament employing the divine name may be regarded as little more than historical curiosity. Either Jehovah's Witnesses or evangelicals may have egg on their face if it's proved one way or the other, but that's about it.

  
  

  However, for those who maintain the holy scriptures, it poses a number of deeper questions. The prescient or fortuitous championing of Jehovah's name by Jehovah's Witnesses is as striking as has been the growing scholarly and evidential support for their position. Would almighty God have allowed this group of Christians to champion his name at this crucial time if they did not enjoy his blessing and support?