Earnest, if I recall correctly, Luther believed that Jesus is the archangel Michael, as do Seventh-day Adventists, but claim it is compatible with Trinitarianism.
slimboyfat
JoinedPosts by slimboyfat
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28
An interesting Observation of some Bibles
by Blotty infirst of all, hi, i go by blotty on this website :) i am someone who has a passion for the bible and like to get a as balanced view as i can from the trinitarian and the jw (or unitarian) side - even though i come off as leaning towards one or the other at times, in my opinion they both have merits in certain cases..if this is in the wrong section i apologise - this is just something i found interesting.iv seen online a lot that say the watchtower and tract society "invented" the link between proverbs 8:22 - 30 and jesus (the word).
yet interestingly some "mainstream" "trinitarian- aimed" translations are cross referencing the following:source:https://www.biblegateway.comprov 8:22 cr rev 3:14niv, gnt,esv, nasb, nasb1995, nasbre, cevprov 8:30 cr john 1:1,2 esv nasbprov 8:30 cr john 1:3esvnasb1995nasb(this list is by no means complete)if this is simply wisdom, why is it referenced with jesus (or the word)?.
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11530
It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars
by Newly Enlightened inoriginal reddit post (removed).
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slimboyfat
The minutes say that Lloyd is from “JWatch” rather than “JW Watch”, a simple spelling mistake, but it doesn’t look like they scrutinised his credentials very far, or cared much what he supposedly represented.
Until now I assumed that the remaining Patreons were somehow supportive of his actions, but is it possible that many of them are still in the dark?
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An interesting Observation of some Bibles
by Blotty infirst of all, hi, i go by blotty on this website :) i am someone who has a passion for the bible and like to get a as balanced view as i can from the trinitarian and the jw (or unitarian) side - even though i come off as leaning towards one or the other at times, in my opinion they both have merits in certain cases..if this is in the wrong section i apologise - this is just something i found interesting.iv seen online a lot that say the watchtower and tract society "invented" the link between proverbs 8:22 - 30 and jesus (the word).
yet interestingly some "mainstream" "trinitarian- aimed" translations are cross referencing the following:source:https://www.biblegateway.comprov 8:22 cr rev 3:14niv, gnt,esv, nasb, nasb1995, nasbre, cevprov 8:30 cr john 1:1,2 esv nasbprov 8:30 cr john 1:3esvnasb1995nasb(this list is by no means complete)if this is simply wisdom, why is it referenced with jesus (or the word)?.
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slimboyfat
Yes from what I understand the most straightforward understanding of Rev 3:14 is that Jesus is “the beginning of the creation of God”, i.e. the first one created. I think Hugh Schonfield has a footnote at this verse where he says that clearly the early Christians believed Jesus was a created being.
Trinitarians have a number of responses to this. As you mention, some argue that the word archē here doesn’t mean “beginning”, but “ruler”, and others “origin”. Yet the go-to scholarly Greek lexicon (known by the initials BDAG) in the latest edition says that it means “beginning” in this verse.
Other Trinitarians, who accept “beginning of the creation of God” as the correct translation, will argue that this does not refer to Jesus as the first creation of God, but refers to the “new creation” instead. I suppose this means it is acceptable for Trinitarians to describe Jesus as a creation in the context of the “new creation” but not in relation to the original creation.
There are so many verses that Trinitarians must “explain away” if they are to maintain that Jesus was not created or did not have a beginning: “he created me, the beginning of his way” (Prov 8:22); “the firstborn of all creation” (Col 1:15); “the beginning of the creation of God” (Rev 3:14); “I live because of the Father” (John 6:57). Another one I came across the other day while reading a book by Maurice Wiles is Hebrews 3:2. This verse seems to apply the word “made” to Jesus (see the original NWT), which is a word that later Trinitarians argued was heresy if applied to Jesus. If Jesus wasn’t created by God then you have got to wonder why so many parts of the Bible give that impression and need to be explained away in order to conform with later dogma.
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11530
It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars
by Newly Enlightened inoriginal reddit post (removed).
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slimboyfat
Well there’s is only 1 person in this room, so I must be the most important person ever. Beat that Lloyd!
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Needed!----1960 Invitations for the Memorial
by Atlantis inone of the members here is looking for memorial invitations for 1960. if anyone here could help out it would be appreciated.
(i have lots of invitations but that one particular year of 1960 seems to be missing.).
i'll buy the next round!
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slimboyfat
Wow, that’s an obscure request, but if anyone can do it it’s you Atlantis!
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11530
It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars
by Newly Enlightened inoriginal reddit post (removed).
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slimboyfat
It was LE who gave the king that faulty pen, that explains it! 🖊
Didn't LE used to publicise his engagements ahead of time so people could meet up with him and so on? I guess the reason he kept this engagement a secret was in case his reputation preceded him and he was excluded from the meeting. That’s why the photo in Westminster Hall and his grin looks a bit like him gloating about getting away with attending the meeting without the organisers being made aware about him beforehand.
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An interesting Observation of some Bibles
by Blotty infirst of all, hi, i go by blotty on this website :) i am someone who has a passion for the bible and like to get a as balanced view as i can from the trinitarian and the jw (or unitarian) side - even though i come off as leaning towards one or the other at times, in my opinion they both have merits in certain cases..if this is in the wrong section i apologise - this is just something i found interesting.iv seen online a lot that say the watchtower and tract society "invented" the link between proverbs 8:22 - 30 and jesus (the word).
yet interestingly some "mainstream" "trinitarian- aimed" translations are cross referencing the following:source:https://www.biblegateway.comprov 8:22 cr rev 3:14niv, gnt,esv, nasb, nasb1995, nasbre, cevprov 8:30 cr john 1:1,2 esv nasbprov 8:30 cr john 1:3esvnasb1995nasb(this list is by no means complete)if this is simply wisdom, why is it referenced with jesus (or the word)?.
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slimboyfat
The link was well established in the early church so that the major Trinitarian advocates of the fourth century, Alexander and Athanasius didn’t disagree that Proverbs 8:22ff applied to Jesus but rather disputed the meaning of wisdom being “created” in this passage.
There are many parallels to wisdom in John 1, including for example the idea of the Word/Wisdom pitching its tent with mankind.
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Australia 2021 Census: why did JW grow?
by shepherdless inhi all, some may remember about 5 years ago, i did a few articles on what the australian census of 2016 said about jw and some other religions.
i have been meaning to add a bit on the 2021 census; the more detailed results have only been available in the last month or so.. an obvious question is why and how did jw numbers increase between 2016 and 2021. it is reasonable to assume the pandemic had a role.
the data doesn't fully answer that question, but it does show that a lot of over 35 y.o.
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slimboyfat
Thank you shepherdless. So the Christadelphians seem to be holding up with fairly stable numbers at the moment. There are more Christadelphians in Australia than there are in the UK, by the way. There are probably fewer than 8000 Christadelphians in the UK.
I see the Brethren are increasing too. I take it that figure is for all strands of Brethren combined. The splinter groups among the Brethen are among the most complicated of any tradition. In my home town there are three different varieties of Brethren, plus a charismatic splinter group. In fact the charismatic group is the largest as well as the most recent.
I did think that Unitarians were listed in Australia last time, but I may be mistaken. There are certainly a handful of Unitarian congregations in Australia. I don’t suppose there is a listing for Universalists.
I wonder if the Iglesia ni Cristo are listed too.
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11530
It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars
by Newly Enlightened inoriginal reddit post (removed).
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slimboyfat
Yeah looks like he ditched his “your religion is not true” placard, in order to fit in with the “faith communities” event. His problem is that the number of people he is managing to fool with his various revenue and ego driven enterprises is steadily shrinking.
I notice he has a follower on Twitter who is obviously mocking him with over the top messages of support, and not yet banned because LE probably thinks the sycophancy is a realistic response to his greatness.
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Australia 2021 Census: why did JW grow?
by shepherdless inhi all, some may remember about 5 years ago, i did a few articles on what the australian census of 2016 said about jw and some other religions.
i have been meaning to add a bit on the 2021 census; the more detailed results have only been available in the last month or so.. an obvious question is why and how did jw numbers increase between 2016 and 2021. it is reasonable to assume the pandemic had a role.
the data doesn't fully answer that question, but it does show that a lot of over 35 y.o.
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slimboyfat
Thank you shepherdless, this is excellent information. 👍
I wonder, do you have access to the figures for the very small groups: Christadelphians and Unitarians? Because I have a particular interest in these groups, and the data is not available on Wikipedia.
I am all in favour of comparisons between groups, because I think it’s a major way we can make sense of trends and the significance of various factors affecting growth. It’s fair to point to the pandemic as having a major impact, for example, and at the same time all religious groups experienced the pandemic. So if some groups declined and others grew during the pandemic, then we need to expand on the relevance of the pandemic as an explanation for a particular trend in a particular group.
According to the data for 2021 and 2016 for religious groups in Australia, this is how JW growth compares with other Christian groups:
Anglican - 19.5%
Baptist + 0.6%
Catholic - 4.1%
Churches of Christ - 9.3%
Jehovah’s witnesses + 2.3%
Latter Day Saints - 6%
Lutheran - 16%
Eastern Orthodox - 8.1%
Pentecostal - 0.3%
Presbyterian and Reformed - 21.2%
Salvation Army - 27.6%
Seventh-day Adventist + 1.3%
Uniting Church - 22.6%
So Jehovah’s Witnesses are the fastest growing Christian group at + 2.3%, followed by Seventh-day Adventists at + 1.3%, and Baptists at + 0.6%
The other Christian groups have all declined, some, including the Uniting Church, Lutheran, Presbyterian and Reformed, and Anglican by around a fifth, or 20%. The steepest decline was in the Salvationists at - 27.6%.
These figures are similar to trends in the UK. Over the year 2021, for example, the Church of Scotland lost over 5% of its membership. Other churches are similar. The only groups I have observed showing signs of growth during the pandemic are JWs and SDAs.