Posts by slimboyfat

11

How many JW's believe to their last breath . .

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

i can easily believe that thousands did all through the watchtowers glory years but especially after '95 the whole thing has been unravelling.

kidding yourself to maintain family relationships and social networks is *somewhat* understandable in life but on your deathbed?.

i think the demographic for jw's may actually get younger as time goes on.

slimboyfat

I think there is a lot of disbelief among JWs at the moment. Recent conversations I have had surprise me how much many JWs question these days. I think JWs are in a pretty vulnerable position right now. A few factors leading to increased doubts: bad publicity over abuse; stupid doctrinal changes such as overlapping generation; the GB making fools of themselves on the TV; many indications of organisational decline; 1914 getting more and more incredible with passage of time; increasing numbers of anointed when they should be going down; lack of substance to meetings and magazines these days; and, not to be underestimated: the secularising trend in society in general having its effect on JWs.

Having said all that, I think it's worth bearing in mind that belief/disbelief are not often, if ever, discrete binaries. I feel this anyway, in relation to myself: that I have experienced a variety of stages between belief and doubt, and one side never fully succeeds in defeating the other. It's true that JWs may more frequently have doubts these days. Unbelievers can also have their "doubts". It's a strange person who doesn't, no matter what their ideological position.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

slimboyfat

Natural laws are themselves part of the things that exist. So how can they be within themselves or explain themselves?

Uniquely miraculous in the true sense of a miracle being something outside of nature's laws

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

slimboyfat

Why does anything exist at all? That's the central mystery/miraculous core.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

slimboyfat

I am not sold on the miraculous/natural distinction.

After all what may have seemed "miraculous" may have a "natural" explanation as a result of advances in technology.

Talking to someone in another country would have seemed miraculous centuries ago.

The things God is said to have done may seem similarly miraculous, yet have natural explanations we are not aware of.

In fact the one thing I would truly reserve the term "miraculous" for, as perhaps undeconstrucable, is the very fact of existence itself. Since what natural law could be invoked as explanation for the existence of everything, including the laws of nature themselves?

102

Any atheists here? Have you come to terms with your new reality?

by kpop in

jw
friends

alone, without my safety net of "god" being there to remember me when i die.

after much consideration, examining science, history and using logic, i have come to the conclusion that there is no "god" at least certainly no loving, personal "god.

" shortly before my final conclusion was reached, i read an excerpt from an expression attributed to marcus aurelius, .

slimboyfat

So no example of a distortion then? Just more general accusations, kicking dust in the air.

And how hypocritical is that: when have you ever presented my views on postmodernism (or anything else) in terms that I would recognise? All I get is insults, and mockery as above.

102

Any atheists here? Have you come to terms with your new reality?

by kpop in

jw
friends

alone, without my safety net of "god" being there to remember me when i die.

after much consideration, examining science, history and using logic, i have come to the conclusion that there is no "god" at least certainly no loving, personal "god.

" shortly before my final conclusion was reached, i read an excerpt from an expression attributed to marcus aurelius, .

slimboyfat

Like what? Just one will suffice.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

slimboyfat

"This is what I would need in order to believe"

and

"demand a number of specific things in order for us to believe in God"

*Scatches head wondering what the difference is*

You are heavy on rhetoric, accusations and insults, but very light on actual responses.

102

Any atheists here? Have you come to terms with your new reality?

by kpop in

jw
friends

alone, without my safety net of "god" being there to remember me when i die.

after much consideration, examining science, history and using logic, i have come to the conclusion that there is no "god" at least certainly no loving, personal "god.

" shortly before my final conclusion was reached, i read an excerpt from an expression attributed to marcus aurelius, .

slimboyfat

Ah well, normal Cofty service resumed I see, insults and all.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

slimboyfat

There's something gone wrong at the end of this thread.

The opneing post seems to demand a number of specific things from God in order for us to believe in him: 1) nature shouldn't be full of death and destruction 2) mass extinctions 3) parasites and predators 4) Bible prophecy should be specific and true 5) the Bible should be clearly ethically superior 6) ahead of its time 7) miracles should be happening with proof 8) no natural disasters 9) prayers would be answered.

But it strikes me that a God could easily exist without doing any of those things. Why not? This list speaks no so much to the probability of a God existing, but his likability according to a set of criteria which are culturally conditioned by our religious background. (Why on earth should clear provable "prophecy" be an essential characteristic for God? Why can't he supply obscure and ambiguous prophecy if he wishes? Other than we would prefer otherwise, I can see no logical reason why a God who provides frustrating prophetic statements is therefore a God who cannot exist.)

And beside all the demands for prophecies and healing and a world without predators and so on. What about the extraordinary things that do exist in this world? What about consciousness and the appearance of beings who can contemplate their origin and fate? What about the very fact that anything exists at all? Are not these things miraculous? In some sense more miraculous than anything in the gospels?

102

Any atheists here? Have you come to terms with your new reality?

by kpop in

jw
friends

alone, without my safety net of "god" being there to remember me when i die.

after much consideration, examining science, history and using logic, i have come to the conclusion that there is no "god" at least certainly no loving, personal "god.

" shortly before my final conclusion was reached, i read an excerpt from an expression attributed to marcus aurelius, .

slimboyfat

Well I went to the library today and looked up a few commentaries on Luke and they all said Jesus was saying that people who suffer "natural calamities" (the term used by I. Howard Marshall) are not singled out because they are especially sinful. But that everyone is sinful and all need to repent if they want to survive in the end.

At which point I forgot how or why you even disagree with that. It seems pretty obscure to me now.

Anyway I ended up coming away with a book on congectural emendation. So all's well that ends well.

Something I find interesting about the approach of yourself and some other atheists to the problem of evil. There seems to be a lot of anger, resentment and even contempt directed toward a God you claim you are sure does not exist.

There is a similar phenomenon in the famous clip of Stephen Fry explaining what he would say if he could confront God.

You would think that if you are committed to the idea of a universe that sprang from nothing, no higher intelligence or divine being, or at least no personal God. In that case you'd think an atheist would be adjusted to a world without purpose or a divine being providing meaning and explanation. In this scenario the universe is not evil or capricious it is just indifferent. You'd think in this case the most natural response to the question: what would you say to God? Would be simply to say there is none, the universe just exists and doesn't care, so there no point investing emotion in the hypothetical scenario.

Yet many atheists such as Fry and yourself, seem to invest a tremendous amount of thought and emotion into the question of how evil God would be if he really created this world, and that you would give him a piece of your mind if you ever met him. To be honest, such sentiments don't really sound like you have really fully given up on a world without a supreme being.

Which reminds me of the sarcastic (but somewhat true) remark that "atheists are boring because all they ever talk about is God".

And Jean Paul Sartre's contradictory complaint: "God doesn't exist, the bastard".

Believers and atheists are much closer than either often admit. As Derrida put it, true believers experience atheist all the time. Apparently the converse is also true.