Posts by Midget-Sasquatch

27

The Nativity Traditions of Jesus

by Leolaia in

the nativity traditions in the synoptic gospels are interesting for their reliance on ot exegetical traditions.

most of the narratives of jesus in the gospels are based on such interpretive traditions, modeling events of jesus' life on various texts of the greek ot.

jesus' multiplication of the loaves (cf.

Midget-Sasquatch

I always learn something new in your write-ups Leolaia. I don't remember Spong's books ever relating the legends of Miriam's dream or the husbands divorcing their wives. Very interesting.

Pole

If I'm not mistaken, pesher, or taking OT passages and applying them to the author's or reader's point in time was a practice of some ancient jews, in particular the Essenes [another curious link to the early christians perhaps?] Hopefully I'm not mixing this up too much with some of Barbara Theiring's ideas on pesher [which aren't taken seriously at all by those in the field - read some of her books and you'll see why :) ]. But Matthew's use of motifs surrounding Moses is sort of in the same vain. Maybe that's the original intent of the author of the Gospel, not as 100% actual history, but simply portraying was was mostly true to the author (Jesus was the Liberator), and doing it according to that particular view of the divine's repeated and similar intervention in history? The Jewish readers would easily pick up on the themes and that sort of approach.

7

Why does the wtbts say you have to bring a sack lunch to the assemblies?

by ko38 in

jw
friends

.

i dont fully understand what the big deal is as to why you cant leave the conventions to go eat.i use to have fun working in the food department when i was younger.you could miss most of the days talks if you stuck around for cleanup.. i helped build the assembly hall here in st>louis.i was thrilled when they installed an ice cream area.that was the best job to have and we used to request that duty months in advance.

(all the ice cream you could eat)then when they went to the free food oh boy did i pig out.dad always put a hundred or so in the kitty and i guess that more than covered the soy bean burgers,burritos and fruit bags that we ate.. but now there is strong admonition to not leave the building for food as well as to stay away from vendors around district assemblies.the only reason for this that i can think of is that they dont want anyone leaving the assembly and not returning for the afternoon session after a tasty lunch and good conversation with your friends.. of course if a lot of people didnt return from lunch they wouldnt be there to give contributions.thats the only reason i can come up with.what do you guys and gals think?

Midget-Sasquatch

I was such a moron growing up!!! I was practically an adult before I started having lunch outside the convention site and not coming back until the afternoon session was about to end. I was amazed at the number of teens and adults who were doing this. The smaller donations resulting from less disposable income has to be the number one consideration though.

33

"Brainwashing " thread......Part 2

by logansrun in

jw
friends

so, if a friend comes up to us and says, ?you?re an idiot!?

and we feel sad and angered after this incident we are likely to say that our friend made us feel sad and angry.

we made ourselves feel sad and angry.

Midget-Sasquatch

Logan,

You agree that the WTBTS uses manipulation, coercion, and several other effective thought reform techniques on its members. You've even practically said that the indoctrination of children growing up as JWs is as close an example to the model "brainwashing" as can be found.

I've agreed with your first post in so far as that in the initial stages, for an adult who's never grown up a JW, they willingly participate in their own thought reforming. I think that while you're looking at the beginning of the process, others are from personal experience focussed on the later stages. I think you should also consider though that the indoctrination process itself, morphs over time to a point where the person is conditioned to be less critical and so in effect highly receptive to external direction.

Yes there is still involvement of the person themselves, but very minimal in the later stages, and its also been highly manipulated. You yourself alluded to the possibility of conditioning your postulated "B" filter. Imagine us poor souls that grew up and actually had alot of our hard-wiring and patterns subjected to the indoctrination. The slyness of the thought reform process is that the person is in the end tricked into administering alot of the conditioning on themselves and they believe they are completely self-directed.

IMHO, those of us who weren't for whatever reason so "taken" by the Borg, just didn't have the indoctrination process reach its later stages.

18

Blood Substitute Vexes Jehovah's Witnesses

by blondie in

http://www.detnews.com/2004/health/0412/22/c01-40027.htm

wednesday, december 22, 2004. .

blood substitute vexes jehovah's witnesses.

Midget-Sasquatch

So maybe this could be the breakthrough that allows the G B off the hook. After all if someone refuses it they can say that the person acted on their own conscience, because WT publications say that it is permissable as not being made from a primary componant

I'm very hopeful of PolyHeme and its time that the cretins on the GB stopped requiring those senseless suicides. I'm more prone to think that its the WT lawyers that have been instigating these sorts of changes rather than any of the despots on the GB.

There still seems to be a fanatical streak within it that favours death over life. Here's a line from the June 15, 2004 WT (somewhere within par16-18) :

Moreover, some products derived from one of the four primary components may be so similar to the function of the whole component and carry on such a life-saving role in the body that most Christians would find them objectionable.

I'm praying that any of the overly impressionable dubs will not let this over-ride the loop-hole that now exists for PolyHeme.

108

Is Islam a religion of Peace?

by Perry in

http://answering-islam.org.uk/quran/themes/jihad_passages.html

the above link shows 164 verses in the koran that instructs the faithful to kill infidels.

in light of this, how can some still spout the mantra that this is a religion of peace and that it's only the "radical fringe" that are causing problems?

Midget-Sasquatch

Perry,

Thanks for all that historical research on christianity and slavery. (I like the movie Spartacus too). An interesting trend I noticed when going through that and the nice NT scriptures highlighted by Narkissos (my hats off to you too), was that early on there was nothing said against the social institution of slavery, only later on. Some other early christian writings also seem to bear that out.

You mentioned how its uncertain how the early christians took some of the NT quotes you listed.Here's a passage in The Didache. Its been describes as one of the earliest "church manuals" for Christians.

Didache 4:10: "do not give orders to your male or female servant - who hope in the same God - out of bitterness, lest they stop fearing the God who is over you both."

The Letter of Barnabus thats found in the Codex Sinaiticus says just as much in 19:7 but it also has a preceding command to slaves: "Be subject to your masters as a replica of God, with respect and reverntial fear."

I agree with you that the Quran has several violent and discriminatory passages within it. One has to consider the type of seige mentality that it sprung from and the conditions in which the people who took to it found themselves in. Are secular and sociological change enough? I don't know.

But I am sure that alot of the reinterpretation and moderation of the quranic verses, has been underway in many portions of Islam for a long time. An example is the command to cut off the hand of a thief. Some have explained it as an allegory to remove the ability of the thief to continue on with that act...which could be done by incarceration alone. So they're addressing the "spiritual" changes that need to be made from within. What the West can do to really help deter militant islam is to address any legitimate greivances they may have about exploitation or abuses of muslim people. They need to work to minimize this perception and any of the reality. Then the militants have less fodder to mobilize the fanatics.

26

For those of us with active JW parents

by JustTickledPink in

jw
friends

there seem to a commonality around here about active jw parents shunning us.. my question is: if your parents weren't a jw, do you think they would be normal, act kindly, be a real parent to you?

or would they still be cold and callused towards you, controlling, etc.

my thought is this, so many times i used to think i wish my mom wasn't a jw because then i thought she would be this wonderful caring mother that i could go to lunch with, share shopping days with, recipes, and we'd be close.

Midget-Sasquatch

I've always wished for a life where my father didn't convert to JWs. At first, I thought it would eliminate all of the problems and arguments my folks had because that's what it always seemed to gravitate around. As I grew up, and they separately opened up about the past to me, I realized how much it had to do with themselves as people. The religion did bring things to the breaking point often though.

My parents would always have treated me exactly the same. I'm dead sure my mother would never shun me even now. I'm pretty sure my Dad would also still find some reason to talk with me even if I were to be DF'ed for apostasy.

I have nothing to complain about. They have been extremely caring for my physical needs and my mother in particular has also been keenly interested in my schooling. I'm sure they have given me their all even with this cult enmeshed into our lives. Its just provided one more reason for my being a disappointment to them. And given the supposed "stakes" to them, its robbed any extra joy that we may have had in our relationships.

55

"Brainwashing" does not exist

by logansrun in

jw
friends

the term "brainwashing" is sometimes thrown around this forum and i thought i'd briefly comment on it.

the idea that a group or person can actually make you think, act and feel in a certain way is highly dubious.

i'm not saying it's impossible, but i highly doubt that any ex-jws have ever experienced "brainwashing.

Midget-Sasquatch

I'd have to agree with Logan's point about absolute total brainwashing/mind control being fiction. I really feel for everyone who grew up a JW as I did. We were forced to live that life and I'm sure its altered us in a number of detrimental ways. But I don't buy that its completely removed our personal choice to believe or doubt. I'm definitely not strong willed ( I couldn't say "no" to being a MS ). Hell I'm still "fading" and being coerced to going to assemblies and meetings from time to time!!! But I never really believed any of it. The hold and control over us was primarily by withholding key information (so we didn't know any better), encouraging us to exercise thought reform on ourselves and by behavioural modification.

Who knows whether such drugs can be developed sometime in the future though?

37

Who here still finds it hard to celebrate Christmas?

by dh in

jw
friends

i was raised a jw and as i've probably said before, i left when i was around 18... i'll be 27 in a few days, and as i get older realise how i do not really know how to celebrate anything.

being raised a jw we never had xmas or birthdays (or any celebration), and since none of the friends i had when i left the jw's were christian either, i have to this day never celebrated it... i am not christian and will openly admit that i couldn't care less about the religious side of christmas, but what i see around me, everywhere in the world are people who aren't really christian either, celebrating christmas, either for kids or friends or whatever, but i've never done that or had anyone around me to do that with... people look forward to this time of year so much, they buzz and rush around like it's a real event, and to this day i've never been able to feel that way.

most of my christmas/birthdays since leaving jw's have been spent by myself, completely devoid of celebration, i want to get into that feel good spirit, but i don't know how, and if i try to fake it, i know it is fake.

Midget-Sasquatch

I've never celebrated Christmas. Always loved the music and some of the tv specials though. The closest xmas tradition I followed was attending a Mass with the school as a child.

Its just too wierd to celebrate it without anyone I really feel close with. None of my immediate family celebrates it. I'm sure other relatives who aren't JWs (my mom's 2nd cousin and her large family) would accept me in their celebrations, but I grew up so dettached from all of them that I really am a stranger in all the areas that count.The year I was a teaching assistant, I tried joining in on a X-mas party put together by the science dept. at the university. Even cooked some pasta with meat sauce, as everyone was encouraged to bring something. I was there for only about 30 min, excused myself, then spent the rest of the time with some Muslim co-workers.

25

Just for Fun! Your Santa's Helper Name

by heart2heart in

jw
friends

very cute and fun!

find out your "santa's helper name" and email it to your friends and family for a laugh!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/derby/fun_stuff/christmas/santas_little_helper_names.shtml.

Midget-Sasquatch

Scrummy Berry-Elf

I'm putting in for a name change...I wanted "intimidating" not "sleazy/grubby" sounding.

108

Is Islam a religion of Peace?

by Perry in

http://answering-islam.org.uk/quran/themes/jihad_passages.html

the above link shows 164 verses in the koran that instructs the faithful to kill infidels.

in light of this, how can some still spout the mantra that this is a religion of peace and that it's only the "radical fringe" that are causing problems?

Midget-Sasquatch

But did that book have a mitigating effect on people's behavior that eventually led many to a more civilised existence? Did it give western people a backdrop of conscience to judge themselves and their societies by?

Again, I think the NT itself had little influence on people's social conscience. Like Abaddon already mentioned, if one were to go by the NT, then none of the Pauline corpus speaks against slavery. It also does nothing for the equality of women. People can be more humane to one another without the NT and by simply following the Golden Rule (which is not only a christian idea).

Psychologists have also shown that for many people, they're behaviours and actions are more dependent on the situation they're in, than to personality or character (religious or otherwise). So it seems those influences even supercede, people's dispositions. I think changing the sociological conditions of those populations will have a greater impact than promoting a hippy-like movement in Islam. They have something like that already with the Sufis. With no perceived threats to their culture and ways of life, they'll by themselves shift focus and pay less heed to blood thirsty mullahs and ayatollahs.