Posts by ellderwho

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Thanks for finally showing some candor.

I thought I stated my position earlier, by defualt, anyway.......

What would your answer be as to where Adam would have obtained "it" (righteousness)?
Let me just clarify some logic here, for you.
We are required tro obtain it because we never had it and were unrighteous from the beginning. Adam would have been required to obtain it after he became unrighteous.
However he wasn't created with any kind of history of unrighteousness.
In the beginning he didn't need to obtain it at all, as he was performing 100% righteous acts.
That pristine record wasn't sullied until dinnertime.

You state "we are required" to do something such as obtaining righteousness, how is that done?

And back-up your argument and tell me how Adam went about obtaining it. (after the fact)

Further you are assuming Adam was righteous to begin with, and you also assume Adams' created properties.

You state Adams history, with no unrighteousness, then I can state Adams history as not having one, and esspecially not a righteous one. (end result)

Tell me what, in Adams short, if at all history defines him as righteous? (good does not qualify as righteous)

If Adam is righteous "out of the gate" then he must have not been experienced at it because "it" failed him miserably. And it didnt last long.

LT:...Who did Adam inherit his sin from? God??
God forbid, that should be the case. Adam authored it himself.

Well then, did Adam author sin while he was righteous?

EW.....Certainly, being the first created being, he was "loaded" if you will, with the attributes that made him a personal human with his personality etc... with that, anything that Adam was, was part of his creative process.
LT.....I don't want to read into that something that you aren't saying, and so I find it vague.
I suspect that you are getting at there being some kind of seed that would later flourish into sin.

Vague.......? its really not that complicated, you have to face the fact that all Adam was, was given him in the creative process, no?

Is the above thought assuming, or is it logical? Its interesting you feel "suspect" that Im implying some sort of seed thought that turned out to be sin. With that did Adam do what he did because of natural desires?

First, "it is not good" is not the same as declaring "Adam was not good".

Huh? I thought it was "all good"

When did good become righteous?

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

When did He look down, so as to make that statement?
At the same time as He said it was very good??

Shortly thereafter, because it was not "good" that Adam be alone

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

You never did answer directly whether or not you believe Adam was created unrighteous...

I do not feel that Adam was created righteous! Therefore that leaves the other " un-righteous"

When did He look down, so as to make that statement?
At the same time as He said it was very good??

Why was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world?

IMHO he was righteous from the beginning. He didn't become unrighteous until a certain point in time wherein he performed an unrighteous act.

Forgive the insertion of words into your mouth however, read a little between the lines here:

EW...You continue to want Adam to have a bit of righteousness, but are unable to point at where he would have obtained it from.

What would your answer be as to where Adam would have obtained "it" (righteousness)?

Certainly, being the first created being, he was "loaded" if you will, with the attributes that made him a personal human with his personality etc... with that, anything that Adam was, was part of his creative process.

Comments?

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

That doesn't answer the following question:
Do you believe Adam was created unrighteous?

I state "I do not hold that Adam was righteous to begin with." What does that leave, as my response?

Look at it this way, God looks down upon earth and sees no one that is "righteous" does not that leave Adam out?

Because its "cut and dry" that no one is righteous. And it is "across the board" that no one is righteous. in this tone the said "righteousness" has to be that no one has this attribute in an of themselves.

This is where I feel that the righteousness that some are said to have in the scriptures is not self manifested. Therefore has to be credited to God.

You continue to want Adam to have a bit of righteousness, but are unable to point at where he would have obtained it from.

Certainly, being the first created being, he was "loaded" if you will, with the attributes that made him a personal human with his personality etc... with that, anything that Adam was, was part of his creative process.

My only deduction would be that if Adam possesed "righteousness" it was imputed from his creator.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

For you to tack on "that he started out with" is totally wrong,

First things first. Was Adam created with this attribute (righteousness) ?

edited to add:

EW: I do not hold that Adam was righteous to begin with.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

I concur that all men have sinned, and even Adam came into a state of unrighteousness, requiring imputed righteousness if he were to be saved. Hence my question about changing states, which you've thusfar deftly avoided

You have Adam changing states not me. I do not hold that Adam was righteous to begin with.

Your thoughts, are, as far as I understand is that for Adam to become unrighteous he had to be righteous from the start.

But then when shown, say Noah, as being righteous while also being a sinner, is a little contradictory to your argument, when you follow up your position about Adam then needing "righteousness" after the fall.

Perhaps Im avoiding your question about states because you present a shifting position of ones righteousness. (Adam starts out righteous, falls into unrighteous state, then gets imputed righteousness, that he started out with)

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

LT.........prior to the fall we have no basis upon which to declare Adam unrighteous,

Or righteous!

I believe you state this because you say God saw creation and it was good, correct? If so how do you figure Gen 6:5-7

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Verse 8,9 says Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. And was a righteous man. But this does not mean he never sinned (9:20)

Ecclesiastes7:20

For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

I can't say that it had nothing to do with it, but I do agree that Paul was making a different argument.

This comment pertains to Ro. 3:10. What then do you feel Pauls argument was?

I feel the "righteousness" Im trying to convey that no man has is the righteousness that we have in Christ.

And the "righteousness" you and Gumby are describing certain men as having is more like a discription of character that is ultimatly the result of faith. And this is faith that comes from God, therefore imputed righteousness. Not of ther own.

Heb 11:4-7 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5.By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6.But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7.By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

And yet some men are identified as righteous.
You fix the contradiction. I'm not going to do your apologetics for you

Well ya got me there, contradictions in the Bible hmmm. I'll have to look at the word righteous and how its being thrown around here.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

A quote from Matthew Henry re: Romans 3:10

(1.) An habitual defect of every thing that is good. [1.] There is none righteous, none that has an honest good principle of virtue, or is governed by such a principle, none that retains any thing of that image of God, consisting in righteousness, wherein man was created; no, not one; implying that, if there had been but one, God would have found him out. When all the world was corrupt, God had his eye upon one righteous Noah. Even those who through grace are justified and sanctified were none of them righteous by nature. No righteousness is born with us. The man after God?s own heart owns himself conceived in sin.

[2.] There is none that understandeth, v. 11. The fault lies in the corruption of the understanding; that is blinded, depraved, perverted. Religion and righteousness have so much reason on their side that if people had but any understanding they would be better and do better. But they do not understand. Sinners are fools.

[3.] None that seeketh after God, that is, none that has any regard to God, any desire after him. Those may justly be reckoned to have no understanding that do not seek after God. The carnal mind is so far from seeking after God that really it is enmity against him.

[4.] They are together become unprofitable, v. 12. Those that have forsaken God soon grow good for nothing, useless burdens of the earth. Those that are in a state of sin are the most unprofitable creatures under the sun; for it follows, [5.] There is none that doeth good; no, not a just man upon the earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not, Eccl. 7:23. Even in those actions of sinners that have some goodness in them there is a fundamental error in the principle and end; so that it may be said, There is none that doeth good. Malum oritur ex quolibet defect?very defect is the source of evil.

LT you must agree that the righteousness spoken of here has nothing to do with your referring that Gods still considered some righteous.

LT: And yet strangely God still calls some of them righteous

You lost me on that one. Clarify if you would.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Who are the rightous? Why don't you look in your bible in the appendix under the word "rightous", and see how many ones you can find who were called rightous by god.

Gumby:

Ro. 3:20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin. (Youngs)
The appendix list of righteous people, is this not inclusive of the OT?

What of Acts 13:39 ?

"and from all things from which ye were not able in the law of Moses to be declared righteous, in this one every one who is believing is declared righteous; (Youngs)

The righteousness is question would be Adams, and where his so called righteousness originated from.

As LT puts it as a child/parent relationship, if this is the order, then Adam must have imputed righteousness from his father, God. (I dont agree with this relationship)

EW: Good question, because if he did love God he would have listened.

So Adam didn't love God then?
I guess children don't love their parents, when they do wrong, either?

You missed my point. If Adam was righteous how did he get his righteousness and why did it fail him?

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Nicely quoted out of context, my friend. Besides, I believe that text to be hyperbole (it's also a Pauline full-text quotation of Ps.14 & 53). Can you truly say that none have sought after God, especially since He instructs them to do exactly that?

Quoted out of context, are your serious? Paul is describing the state of ALL men, Jew and Gentile.

I believe you are missing something. What does Ro. 3:20 do to your explaining Ro.3:10 as hyperbole?