LittleToe,
Where we hi-jacked? And why do you put DDog in hyper-Cal ??
E.
ellderwho
JoinedPosts by ellderwho
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774
Freedom to Choose God
by UnDisfellowshipped income to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
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774
Freedom to Choose God
by UnDisfellowshipped income to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
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ellderwho
Whatever individual sand grain happens to be the last down the hole we can call the winner.
Winner of what? Remember theres no purpose.
Then it is demonstrated that you exist within the natural laws of the universe that cannot change.
Therefore any change in your thinking is simply chemical reactions in your brain, that are causing you to say this, because you cannot rise above the laws that bind you.
What do you think the fate of the grain of sand is? I didn't postulate one.
I think you did, you go down the hole.
What do you think my purpose is?:
Are you under the same laws as the grain of sand?
Of course.
:: All of the grains obey certain statistical physical laws in falling through the hole, but it can hardly be argued that physical law was designed to enable a sand grain to survive
You have no choice its been decided by natural law.
It seems to me you really have no freedom, or independency, and you are guided by these laws. That you can never exceed. Just a bag of chemicals reacting to stimuli.
I believe your arguement is from silience, because you will never know the outcome.
Anything more is against what defines evolution.
E.
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774
Freedom to Choose God
by UnDisfellowshipped income to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
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ellderwho
AlanF,
: Are'nt you relying on logic?
I like to think I am.
: If so where does this logic come from?
Our brains, which evolved over several million years into the best social computers the world has ever seen, and into excellent survival machines that rely specifically on logically putting those "real, observable effects" into actions that result in survival.
How do you relate the above survival notion to your analogy of a grain of sand surviving?
All of the grains obey certain statistical physical laws in falling through the hole, but it can hardly beargued that physical law was designed to enable a sand grain to survive
In the end does man has the same fate as the grain of sand?
Are you under the same laws as the grain of sand?ellderwho said:
: So your mind is derived from "natural" laws?
Right
: And the end result is your mind/brain has risen above these natural laws to give you a pupose of survival?
Not at all. The notion that survival is a purpose in evolution is flat-out wrong, according to evolutionary biologists. It's a statistical thing. Suppose you pour a cup of sand into an hourglass. There's going to be a last grain of sand that falls through the hole, even though no one can predict which grain it's going to be. That grain might be said to have survived the longest. All of the grains obey certain statistical physical laws in falling through the hole, but it can hardly be argued that physical law was designed to enable a sand grain to survive. It simply turns out that way, without necessarily anyone designing a purpose into the sand or the hourglass or matter itself.
I confused, didnt you say,
" Our brains, which evolved over several million years into the best social computers the world has ever seen" and into excellent survival machines
Then you state,
The notion that survival is a purpose in evolution is flat-out wrong,
This is what Im trying to understand, is how does AlanF break out of the mold that molded you?
Obvisiously you've evolved to the best something, for the fact that you used the word evolve and the word survival indicates you have risen above the "natural laws' that brought you forth as a "being".
You have demonstrated that you have escaped the limitations of "natural laws" and now have a purpose.
This is why I asked you first,what is mankinds purpose?
: If so, how does your brain evolve to elavate itself above its natural origins? ie. chemical reactions in your brain.
Apply my above comments and you'll have your answer.
I dont see what observing a physical action has to do with AlanF rising above the natural laws you want me to observe.
E.
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774
Freedom to Choose God
by UnDisfellowshipped income to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
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ellderwho
Take your pick eh?
Gumby
From the author, Skeptics Annotated Bible:
When I was a Christian, I never read the Bible. Not all the way through, anyway. The problem was that I believed the Bible to be the inspired and inerrant word of God, yet the more I read it, the less credible that belief became. I finally decided that to protect my faith in the Bible, I'd better quit trying to read it
Anyone can make the Bible say what they want, What do you want it to say gumbnostic
E
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774
Freedom to Choose God
by UnDisfellowshipped income to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
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ellderwho
: Are'nt you relying on logic?
I like to think I am.
: If so where does this logic come from?
Our brains, which evolved over several million years into the best social computers the world has ever seen, and into excellent survival machines that rely specifically on logically putting those "real, observable effects" into actions that result in survival.
So your mind is derived from "natural" laws?
And the end result is your mind/brain has risen above these natural laws to give you a pupose of survival?
If so, how does your brain evolve to elavate itself above its natural origins? ie. chemical reactions in your brain.
E.
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774
Freedom to Choose God
by UnDisfellowshipped income to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
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ellderwho
Alan,
Living one's life based on realities that can be observed and/or produce real, observable effects is invariably better than living it based on unrealities such as Santa Clause. Many Christian claims, and ideas found in the Bible, are demonstrably unreal.
You make interesting statements. Im curious what is mankinds purpose?
If at all, would you consider to abide by a set of Laws? ie. natural, inherent
You state:"Living one's life based on realities that can be observed and/or produce real, observable effects"
Are'nt you relying on logic? If so where does this logic come from?
E.
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774
Freedom to Choose God
by UnDisfellowshipped income to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
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ellderwho
Maybe the thread should read "freedom to choose your own God"
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774
Freedom to Choose God
by UnDisfellowshipped income to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
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ellderwho
LT:
For some, they work to the ethos of a deity. Since this "belief" helps them get through life, giving them purpose and assuaging certain fears and concerns, it simply works for them. If they desire to complicate it with further mental gymnastics, so be it.
Yeah, someday I'll perfect that back-flip, triple twist, predestination thought.
I tend to hold beliefs for which there is a substantial amount of actual evidence. I.e., ones that have at least a modicum of scientific basis.
DDog to really have a firm foundation is to believe in things that have a lot of evidence or you can settle for just a little bit of evidence, see its that easy.
edited to add, "a little bit of scientific evidence"
E.
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774
Freedom to Choose God
by UnDisfellowshipped income to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
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ellderwho
LT,
This is my problem with the choice issue.
Gods sovereignty, how could one possibly imply that their individual choice could effect the outcome that has already occured in the the timeline of God who is not subjected to time?
I have the same arguement for the LDs' and Jws. If God is counting on mankind to give the Gospel that saves man, we have a big problem. Not that I dont believe that the great commission is invalid, I just do not believe its man that is responsible (in the end).
I've used the borrowed phrase 'God as a spectator' this is the Arminians' default mode. If this dilema could be explained then there would be something to talk about.
E.
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774
Freedom to Choose God
by UnDisfellowshipped income to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
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ellderwho
LT:
From an human/experiential perspective, however (and citing Abraham v's Sodom as a biblical example) is "appears" that we make choices of our own volition and freewill, and that God somehow accedes.
Are you suggesting that Lot chose his fate?E.