ellderwho

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Posts by ellderwho

• 
  234

  Intelligent Design

  by Delta20 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hey all,.

  i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

  basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  ellderwho

  Dude could jerry rig all sorts of useful things from items used for different purposes.

  LOL, yeah we gota guy like that in work. In the end its better the pros take care of important problems.
• 
  234

  Intelligent Design

  by Delta20 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hey all,.

  i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

  basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  ellderwho

  FS,

  Because I have a "christian world view" I account for the laws of logic as a reflection of God.

  How does the atheist account for the laws of logic. He cannot. He has to borrow from the christian world view to argue successfully with logic.

  As AlanF has been exposed in his thinking that he himself in his mind accounts for logic. Logic being truth cannot be subjective as the human mind would make it.

  As pointed out in previous posts' the atheist will try to account for laws of logic through nature and this does not work either, he is then confusing the mind with the universe, the laws of logic are not the result of observable behavior of objects or actions. ie. we do not see in nature something that is both itself and not itself at the same time.

  Further, how can absolute, conceptual, abstract laws be derived from a universe of matter, energy and motion? let alone chance.

  On this thread Ive had to give definitions of my definitions because the atheist cannot have a "universal standard of rationality" He's just waiting for a definition he can tear down but, the onus is upon the atheist if he wants to argue using logic. At least I can account for the laws of logic the atheist cannot.

  And if we use the logic that I.D. proves the existance in the God of the bible,, we can with the same type logic come all sorts of other conclusions as well,, that takes us beyond the bible god senerio. That is if we are fair in our use of that type of logic.

  Now do you get it??

  No. Take me beyond the Bible God senerio and show me. Logically.
• 
  234

  Intelligent Design

  by Delta20 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hey all,.

  i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

  basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  ellderwho

  Franky says,

  :it seems your quote of my words to be purposefully left unclear with important words left out

  Verywell,

  :'If we use a certain type of logic for our "proof of god's existance" that same type of logic if taken a few steps further brings us to 1000s or perhaps millions of different other possiblities'.

  What certain type of logic are you reffering to? And take it a step further and make it work. And be very clear.
• 
  234

  Intelligent Design

  by Delta20 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hey all,.

  i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

  basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  ellderwho

  frankie says,

  :'If we use a certain type of logic......"

  And that would be....?

  :if taken a few steps further.....

  Take it a few steps further and make it,

  :simple and clear.
• 
  234

  Intelligent Design

  by Delta20 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hey all,.

  i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

  basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  ellderwho

  FBF:

  I not sure I fully understand you. Or the point your trying to make, sorry.
• 
  234

  Intelligent Design

  by Delta20 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hey all,.

  i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

  basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  ellderwho

  :I give up, ellderwho. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about and I won't waste any more bandwidth with you.

  I will.
  

  AlanFs response to where does logic come from,

  see:http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/71855/15.ashx
  

  :Our brains, which evolved over several million years into the best social computers the world has ever seen, and into excellent survival machines that rely specifically on logically putting those "real, observable effects" into actions that result in survival.

  This doesnt work, since all people are different and the human mind is often contradictory.

  We discover laws of physics by observing and analyzing the behavior of things around us. The laws of logic are not the result of observable behavior of object or actions, ie. we do not see in nature that something is both itself and not itself at the same time. The laws of logic are not descriptions of action, but of truth.

  Try again Al.
• 
  234

  Intelligent Design

  by Delta20 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hey all,.

  i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

  basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  ellderwho

  Alan F.::"Living one's life based on realities that can be observed and/or produce real, observable effects"
  

  EW: Are'nt you relying on logic?

  Alan F :I like to think I am.

  EW : If so where does this logic come from?

  Our brains, which evolved over several million years into the best social computers the world has ever seen, and into excellent survival machines that rely specifically on logically putting those "real, observable effects" into actions that result in survival.

  AlanF.......... "freedom to choose God thread"

  Whats your definition of logic?
• 
  234

  Intelligent Design

  by Delta20 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hey all,.

  i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

  basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  ellderwho

  DDog,

  As AlanF repeatedly pointed out, the "laws of logic" Ellderwho referred to have not been defined.

  Sure they have, its just not the definition Alan F. wants to tear down.
• 
  234

  Intelligent Design

  by Delta20 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hey all,.

  i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

  basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  ellderwho

  Alan F writes: ellderwho said:

  : I did? Logic was brought up on pg. 4 or 5.

  Yes, you certainly did bring up the subject. While funkyderek first mentioned "the laws of logic", you said in response:

  : Pole, Derek how would you account for the laws of logic?

  Derek: OK. We've been talking at cross-purposes then. It's certainly conceivable that there's a complex invisible creator outside our universe that is not detectable in any way nor subject to the laws of our own universe nor even laws of logic.

  Page 5 17-Feb-05 11:43

  DDog asks him this: derek

  What are the laws of logic and where did they come from?

  :My question to you obviously was to define "the laws of logic" that you think need to be accounted for.

  :Again, define your terms. What do you think "universal standards of rationality" are? Give some examples.

  The standards of opposites like, up and down, hot and cold.

  : If you don't answer these simple questions, then I have no choice to conclude that you're not interested in a discussion, and I will cease talking to you.

  Maybe Derek has a better explanation?
• 
  234

  Intelligent Design

  by Delta20 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hey all,.

  i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

  basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  ellderwho

  In regards to the question " how would you account for the laws of logic"

  Alan F: This is an extremely stupid question, akin to asking, 'How would you account for the laws of arithmetic, such as the fact that 1 + 1 makes 2?' Or, 'How would you account for the fact that God cannot make an object so heavy that he cannot lift it?'

  Is this supposed to prove theres something God cannot do, (logically) ? This might work, but this type of reasoning leaves out some vital information, which the atheist omits...... Gods omnipotence is not seperate from his nature. God can only do things that are consistent with his nature.

  So its true God cannot make a rock so big..... that doesnt mean hes not God. It would be a contradiction with God to do so.

  As far as arithmetic........1 + 1 = 2 how do you know this is true in all the world, or are you just trying to show me a "universal standard of rationality"

  Ive answered "extremely stupid questions" that you claim are "akin" to my question, at least you could answer mine.