Posts by ellderwho

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

When I say that God permits something I don't mean that He has no control. There's no stage of the game where He can't do something, yet he allows events to occur (is "allow" a better word??), with His hand hovering over them.

Did this reasoning apply to Luciferr?

I don't have to, but I do agree that that's the way the story goes

This is my point, why was that tree there, with its "good and evil" And where did that evil come from?

This is where "everything that was made" comes in. All powers and principalities has to be inclusive of every force known to us, if not we create a much bigger problem. That is Satan can continue to thwart Gods plans, and so on....
You'll excuse me, I hope, if I express my humble opinion that you are taking a very narrow view if you think the theological construct you present is the only way to surmount that problem.

Certainly you have a idea of what the powers and principalities is reffering to?

You already know that I don't believe God created the "evil" that you are refering to

Then what kind of evil do you mean?

How do define grace?

I kinda like the Jw term, dare I say "undeserved kindness"

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

It doesn't need creating in the manner you ascribe. Nor is God to be found the author of it. You have yet to establish this one...
Hence, since it is clear that it exists, God clearly has permitted it.

You'll have to agree when God created the earth the "tree" in the garden was part of Gods creation, it was not there by accident.

Being that God created the tree with all its implications, one has to conclude it was the catylst by which man fell.

God creates man, why create him if God knows he will fall. Why create him with the ability to fall?

Where did the evil in Satan come from? If you say Satan then you've brought Satan up to a formidable force to be reckons with. Actually Satan has become stronger then God if that where the case.

Satan is "father of the lie" true, but who created Satan?

This is where "everything that was made" comes in. All powers and principalities has to be inclusive of every force known to us, if not we create a much bigger problem. That is Satan can continue to thwart Gods plans, and so on....

What is evil and why would God create it?

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Further, the only scripture which you can come up with regarding God being the creator of evil is Isa.45:7,

The above is Gods word not mine.

and I showed you how I interpret that one.

How so?

Do you base your whole doctrine of "God as the author of sin" on that text and allusions to potters in a couple of other places? That doesn't really wash with the rest of scripture (e.g. James

Yes to the first part, Your argument is with scripture not me. You will have to explain away Isa.45:7.

Washing with scripture? Ive asked of you how many times to define what does "everything made that was made" include? What was you response?

Futhermore what does "not anything made that was made" not include? Tell me.

If the Bible says God is a three legged dog then what will you do? If the bible states God created evil what will you do?

LT, what are the parameters of evil?

Isa.45:7, and I showed you how I interpret that one.

You showed/said nothing of your own accord, what you showed was someone elses thoughts that you happen to agree with.

I asked for your thoughts, your interpretations.

on that text and allusions to potters in a couple of other places?

Potter in other places? how about two verses down from the one in question: Just to stay in context

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Isaiah 45:8
Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

Isaiah 45:9
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! [Let] the potsherd [strive] with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Isaiah 45:10
Woe unto him that saith unto [his] father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

Im sorry you dont like the fact that the Bible states what it states. It has to be accepted with the rest, yes James too.

Further, you still haven't really addressed this:
How do you define the words "grace" and "mercy" in that context?

I would address it the same as I would anywhere else in the Bible whats the problem? Ro.9:14-16 says it just fine:

Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Romans 9:14
What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Romans 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 9:16
So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

EW:It's difficult to read tone in this medium, so I'm not quite sure how you're managing that

Perhaps your right, maybe it was meant in the "I dont like the tone of your look" way

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

EW:
How do you reconcile in your mind a god who creates evil and sin and then condemns the bearers of that to an eternity of torment?
Do you simply write it off as "the potter's right"?
How do you define the words "grace" and "mercy" in that context?

Because God makes the rules, does not mean that he is guilty of them.

As the DDog pointed out, in our governement laws are passed and we have to live within them. That does not condem the lawmakers does it?

Simply stated everything God does is righteous. You seem to want to wiggle out of certain parts of scripture that has God creating everything.

Or maybe define as Ive asked you before what specifically do you believe God creates? Because from your tone, God has limitations in things he has set into place.

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

What's your understanding of it?

Do you want my understanding or a paraphasing of other comentaries

I believe Isaiah says God created everything. And that Isaiah is specific, "creates evil" creates darkness.

Its apparent Isa. 45:7 is problematic for you.

You already know my opinions. I've expressed them time and again.

Im speaking of Isa. 45:7 I thought we were on the same page?

EW:I apologise for the delay, but I've finally been able to look at Isa.45:7.

What are your conclusions after comparing words used in Gen. and Isa. in relation to "create'?

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

After forming an opinion on the text I hooked out a few commentaries, and it turns out they concur with my opinion, and elaborate on the meaning Cyrus would have taken from it. I'll highlight my opinions, as found.

LT, what are your opinions? What is your understanding of "I create evil", not theirs!

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

PS speaking of that pseudo-Calvinist where is LT

LOL at DDog.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

EW:Scripture is ALWAYS open to interpretation, my friend, not least when questioning the underlying language and translation.

Agreed, however I believe the scripture quoted seems to have become problematic for you. E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

To that end, my comments reflect that stance.

Very well. With all things considered Im interested in your position on what God created specifically?

Because scripture(Isa.45:7) clearly states what it states. (with no interpetive values required)

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

LT, I think we should back up here.

The sole reason for quoting Is 45:7 was to show where God creates everything. This is what scripture states.Evil, darkness everything, Period.

Isa 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]. KJV

The word "evil" by Strongs def. is word 7489

1) to be bad, be evil

a) (Qal)

1) to be displeasing

2) to be sad

3) to be injurious, be evil

4) to be wicked, be evil (ethically

LT If (as I suspect it does) Isa.45:7 refers to the night of Gen.1:3-5, then we need to ask whether or not God's pre-Genesis acts created a universe that was wholey dark and without light, or else was darkness part of eternity also?

This is just clouding the issue. Did God create evil in Isa. 45:7?

E.