The Atheist's Book of Bible Stories - Ch. 20 - Original Sin

by RunningMan 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    ORIGINAL SIN

    Last night, I had an unusual experience – well, unusual for you, not for me. I’ve been through it around 40 times.
    Every spring, the Jehovah’s Witness religion holds its only ceremony, called the Memorial of Christ’s Death. It is held on the Jewish date of Nisan 14, and, for an outsider, it is one of the strangest customs you will ever encounter. It’s kind of like Easter, in a perverse sort of way.
    It begins with the local congregation beating the bush for every warm body that they can find, to bring up the attendance. Although I haven’t been in a Kingdom Hall for a couple of years, I thought I would throw the relatives a bone this year by taking in the local memorial. They still hold out hope that I will return to the flock.
    Once the hall is filled, a short sermon is given, explaining the events on the last day of Jesus’ life. Then a glass of wine and a plate of unleavened bread is passed around – but, you’re not supposed to drink or eat any of it. Only those who are going to heaven get to eat the stuff, and most of them died in the 1920s. Us lowly other ones are just observers.
    So, we observe the glass and the plate being handed around, then wrap up the proceedings and go home. Sixteen million people did this last year. What a fricken waste of time.
    Anyway, at least it got me thinking. This whole issue of Jesus ransom sacrifice is based on some pretty shaky logic. Let’s take a look at some of the flaws in it.
    Unfairness – First of all, we have the problem of the unfairness of original sin. Why are people punished for the sin of their ancestors? Why am I sentenced to death because a naked chick ate a piece of fruit at the insistence of a talking snake? Never mind the lunacy of the premise, I want to know what kind of court would convict me for a crime committed by someone else.
    Proportion – Where I live, the toughest sentence for a crime is life in prison, which ends up at 25 years or less. This means that the worst crime that our society can imagine is worthy of taking only a portion of a person’s life. Yet, for the sake of a piece of fruit, God has sentenced billions of people to the death penalty. The crime committed in Eden is on par with a parking ticket. Get some perspective, God.
    Science – As I understand the story, we all die because Adam and Eve sinned, and they passed on their sin to us. But, why would sin be hereditary? You can only pass on to your decendents the contents of your genes. If Adam and Eve were created perfect, then their genetic material must also have been perfect. You can’t inherit something like theft – it isn’t a genetic item. It would be like inheriting a haircut or a trip to the store. God needs to brush up on his genetics.
    Consistency – If we grow old and die because of original sin, then why do animals grow old and die? They age and get sick, just like us, often from the same diseases. So, if human aging and death is such an unnatural state that it requires a supernatural explanation, then why don’t we require the same explanation from the animal kingdom? Dogs were created directly by God, and everything he does is perfect. So, dogs must therefore be perfect. If they die, then aging and death must be the perfect progression and ending state for them, unless they also sinned. Perhaps Rover ate a forbidden kibble.
    Suffering – Much fuss has been made about Jesus suffering on our behalf. Mel Gibson has shown us in graphic and profitable detail exactly what Jesus went through, so we should be grateful. But, I say what’s the big deal? Jesus was tortured and killed. Many other people have also been tortured and killed under equal or worse conditions, notably the guys who were crucified beside him. He had a bad experience, but it wasn’t supernaturally bad. Others have had worse. The son of God should have been subjected to a whopper of a torture session. But, he wasn’t.
    Death – Can we really say that Jesus died for our sins? The tragedy of death is really twofold – the experience of the moment of death, and the eternal oblivion that follows it. The true tragedy is the lack of a return. Jesus had the first part, but he didn’t stay dead very long – only about a day and a half, and he skipped the worst part entirely. He missed out on the eternity of oblivion. So, Jesus didn’t die for our sins, he just had a really bad weekend for our sins.
    Ransom – Now, I must ask the central question to this discussion: What’s the point? For the sake of argument, let’s concede that the original sin thing is real. But, we are told that Jesus died for our sins, and because of his sacrifice, he has made salvation available to humans. What kind of logic is this? What good can come from killing a person? On what planet does the murder of an innocent person fix anything? By way of analogy, imagine that you are in court, charged with murder. The judge finds you guilty, and sentences you to life in prison. Or, if you prefer, you could just kill your son, and they would call it all even. That’s the story of the Bible.
    This story has more holes in it that Swiss cheese. But, I am overlooking what is probably the biggest flaw in the story. Let’s take a brief look at the life of Jesus.
    The Bible says that Jesus was baptized in 29 AD (at age 30) and died in the year 33 AD (at 33 ½ years of age). So, he must have been born in the year 1 BC. Right?
    Yet, Matthew says that Jesus was born "In the days of Herod" (Matt 2:1). As well, Matthew tells us that Herod issued the command to kill all babies under the age of 2, so that he could be sure to exterminate the Messiah. (Matt 2:16) Herod died in 4 BC. Therefore, Jesus must have been born between 4 and 6 BC. Hmmm, that’s a bit of a problem.
    Then, Luke says that Jesus was born "When Cyrenius was governor of Syria." (Luke 2:2) Cyrenius served as governor of Syria on two occasions. The first time coincided with Herod’s reign, prior to 4 B.C., but there was no census at this time. The second time began in 7 A.D. There was a census during this period. Luke appears to have taken events from one period and transposed them into another period.
    This is just one example of many inconsistencies in the story of Jesus. There are many others, ranging from the contradictory genealogies presented by Matthew and Luke, to the specific events of his life.
    In addition, many events recorded in the Bible (such as Herod’s massacre of infant children) are not found in any secular records, even though the historians of the day were very anti-Herod and would have loved to ensconce something like this in the permanent record.
    When you take these errors and omissions, and add on the mythological similarities to other ancient legends, you come to an inescapable conclusion: The majority of the Jesus myth is simply wishful thinking. The Bible account may be loosely based on an actual individual or composite of individuals, but the finished product is just a cartoon. Jesus is no more likely to return from the grave and redeem me of my sins than Spiderman.
    So, I traveled home from the memorial with a lot of food for thought – no unleavened bread or wine, unfortunately, but more useful ideas than I ever thought I could take home from a kingdom hall.

  • DannyBloem
    DannyBloem
    Why am I sentenced to death because a naked chick ate a piece of fruit at the insistence of a talking snake?

  • GetBusyLiving
    GetBusyLiving

    Hey RunningMan what books do you recommend for research on the Jesus myth?

    GBL

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    Well, I always recommend Asimov's Guide to the Bible for all around reasonable views on the entire Bible. Specifically, G A Wells book "The Jesus Legend" comes to mind, although I haven't read it, so I can't personally endorse it. There's probably lots of good information on the internet for free, but you will have to wade through the religious appologists.

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    Unfairness – First of all, we have the problem of the unfairness of original sin. Why are people punished for the sin of their ancestors?

    You have an incorrect view of this. Think of it as Adam sinning before he had any children and then God killed Adam and Eve that week and started over with a more obedient couple? That works. Except the new couple would have a different genetic pool, etc. Adam's potential children would be lost. But God understood the potential children of Adam losing their life on behalf of Adam. Since God did think this was the senseless death of many innocents, he made arrangements to save them but still inforce his law regarding death so that Satan could be rightfully destroyed. In order to do that, all the potential children of Adam would have to be born though they would later die after a shortened life, and then on Judgment Day, all would come back, both the righteous and the unrighteous and those who would have been killed anyway for being crimals or disregarding God's laws would basically be condemned and those who likely would hae been obedient would be granted Everlasting Life. So in this way, though God could have just stated over with another family, he saved us, specifically. But it wouldn't be easy. Imperfect people would be born into an imperfect world influenced by Satan. There would be some pains. But in the end, it would be worth it. Satan would not have been successful killing off Adam's innocent children after all.

    Or to put it in modern terms so you'd understand. Say a woman was sentenced to death and they set her execution date but she ended up getting pregnant. What do you do? The woman deserves to die for her crimes. Do you extend the death sentence until she has her child? Of course. That's all that happened. Men were allowed to be born so they'd have a chance at life. But in the end, it's not really the temporary life that matters, but eternal life. So you have to look at the big picture and final result. It's very simple. God giving your family a break so you could live, or choosing a new family so life would not be yours. But he did it in a way so that the laws would still be in place to kill Satan and all other wicked who disrupt.

    JC

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    Science – As I understand the story, we all die because Adam and Eve sinned, and they passed on their sin to us. But, why would sin be hereditary? You can only pass on to your decendents the contents of your genes. If Adam and Eve were created perfect, then their genetic material must also have been perfect. You can’t inherit something like theft – it isn’t a genetic item. It would be like inheriting a haircut or a trip to the store. God needs to brush up on his genetics.

    LOL, ya he must have crippled our genome, and inserted millions of years of evolutionary junk. AND NOW LOOK AT US! ALL A BUNCH OF SUFFERING SINNERS!

    Since God did think this was the senseless death of many innocents, he made arrangements to save them but still inforce his law regarding death so that Satan could be rightfully destroyed

    HA HA! JCanon, that was funnier than anything runningman said.

    the death of any innocent is senseless, including all the innocents that HAVE ACTUALLY LIVED and died because god decided to not start over, and cripple our genome instead! Sirrah!

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    JC, your analogy to a pregnant woman sentenced to death is ridiculous. To make it at least a little more applicable, back the woman up a bit - not pregnant, but fertile. Eve was not pregnant. Using your logic, fertile women (and men) should never be executed, because of the potential children that you would be murdering.


    In addition, you are in effect saying that all descendents of the fertile criminal should be punished for the crime, to the end of time.


    Your logic is a very good example of the contortions that a person must go through in order to justify this stuff.

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Proportion – Where I live, the toughest sentence for a crime is life in prison, which ends up at 25 years or less. This means that the worst crime that our society can imagine is worthy of taking only a portion of a person’s life. Yet, for the sake of a piece of fruit, God has sentenced billions of people to the death penalty. The crime committed in Eden is on par with a parking ticket. Get some perspective, God.

    Good point. But it was a trap for Satan. This was a chance for Satan to make a political statement against God since he was unhappy and had given up on his life serving this God, but decided to hurt God in the final process by killing billions of potential people. Satan was a "manslayer from the beginning" as the Bible says. But the brunt effect was nullified when God put in place the Ransom Sacrifice which bypassed the law sufficiently to allow for Adam's condemned children to have a second chance at life, so in the end, Satan basically only kills those who God would have to kill anyway. With the laws still in place, though, Satan got condemned to death through this. Don't forget, it was not just Adam and Eve that sinned but Satan also.

    In fact, Satan might have thought the same thing as you. Why would god kill this man and woman and all their potential children simply by eating off a couple of trees? For Satan it was way too temping. It was a one-time chance before Adam and Eve had children to kill off billions of people all at the same time. This was his chance to make an impact. To challenge God to see if he would go through with it. Well, he did, but he left a "back door" on that death policy that basically said that he could bring back whom he wanted for eternal life.

    But perhaps THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD FOCUS ON MORE THAN THE DETAILS, RELATING TO THE BIG PICTURE, WHICH IS THIS:

    Life itself. Life. Think in terms, though, of the wonder of life as experienced by a plant or flower or a cat or bird. It's wondrous, but temporary. So let's say God made man and the angels with a set life span, after which they would die and leave the universe to others. Would somone dying at 80 years claim that wasn't long enough and wasn't worth being born for? No.

    So God is the Creator and if he wishes to grant life for just a temporary time, that's up to him. It's still a "gift". He's not obligated to give anyone "eternal life."

    Therefore, from a legal point of view, to "kill" someone simply brings death sooner than their time. So in a way, there is no LEGAL or MORAL arguments about life and death. If God gave everybody 80 years to life the life they wanted then they die, then there is no moral issue, is there?

    After all, we were going to die anyway, right? So what if God said, "Okay, you're right, you're right! It is cruel of me to kill billions of people at Armageddon. So I'll let everybody live our your normal lives to 85, I won't kill anybody." We'd still be dead.

    So in a way, God has let Satan live all this time, to do his thing. God has simply put a limit on that time. He's put a limit on eveerybody's first life. Then ALL must die. But...for those he wants, he brings back and gives them eternal life. Which is HIS choice. But if God basically lets the wicked live out their lives as he does the righteous, there is no fault in God if he simply limits your life. Thus "eternal life" is purely a wonderful gift beyond the previlege of living for a short, temporary time.

    So for those who can actually "get with the program" and understand how it all works, they are very thankful and grateful to the creator for allowing them to have life, but especially life eternal.

    Those who are unhappy and unsatisfied with what God has to offer or the way he's doing things, simply will die off when their time is off and not be invited back.

    Everybody must die. Even Christ. Getting invited back is the real trick! Dying is no big deal. Getting invited back is the big deal!

    JC

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Ransom – Now, I must ask the central question to this discussion: What’s the point? For the sake of argument, let’s concede that the original sin thing is real. But, we are told that Jesus died for our sins, and because of his sacrifice, he has made salvation available to humans. What kind of logic is this? What good can come from killing a person? On what planet does the murder of an innocent person fix anything? By way of analogy, imagine that you are in court, charged with murder. The judge finds you guilty, and sentences you to life in prison. Or, if you prefer, you could just kill your son, and they would call it all even. That’s the story of the Bible.

    Interesting, but I'd prefer to think of it this way. Again, imagine you're in your mother's womb. She commited some crime with the death penalty and was executed the same week, which in turn meant you would die. Is that fair?

    Well what if she was only three months pregnant? Should the death penalty be postponed for 6 months until the child was born?

    What if she was only a month pregnant or had just conceived the night before her execution? If they stayed the execution 9 months, you'd be born. If they carried it out, then you would die with her.

    Well, God goes beyond that. He considers the unborn potential individual before they are even born. He can see that if you grew up, got married to a lovely person and had several children and in time they had several children and in time they had several children, what potential that would be for all your decendants. But if you die before having a child, that potential family would never be born. When we die, we take all the potential children in our loins with us.

    Now, as far as inheriting sin and all that, the details are not explained in the Bible. But it's possible that without partaking of the tree of life, makind would have died anyway. After all, if Adam was obedient and perfect, what was to stop him from living forever? So what is the "tree of life" really for? Thus eternal life or continuing life would still depend upon God. Thus it may be that what Adam needed to live forever or beyond 1000 years was something he didn't have, something he needed from the tree of life. Perhaps eating from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, as they were commanded not to do, caused a pollution of some sort that was now passed onto his offspring, like a genetic disease.

    But all probably isn't what you're concerned about. God could have made things differently or banned death entirely. But the problem would have been Satan running rampant. In order to kill Satan, there had to be laws that if broken would carry the penalty of death. Without those laws, applied to everyone across the board, then there would be no precedence for killing Satan.

    But as I noted earlier, God has a "trump" card, an Ace in the hole, which is, he has the right to limit the life of any of his creatures, so long as he does that equitably, there is no legal challenge to that. So that concept has applied! That means everyone will have their temporary life and then die, even Jesus Christ had to die. So let's say God sets a limit and everybody must die and they do. Good and bad alike and then there is no one. God can do that. But then, he starts to miss the company of some of his favorites and decides to bring them back and give them eternal life. That's his choice too. Only he doesn't get around to bringing back Satan and the other wicked to life.

    So as I said, all this "killing" and sentencing to death is really a vaneer, since technically, especially for those who don't believe in God or the Bible, they were going to die of old age (hopefully) anyway, right? I mean we're only complaining because God kills us off "early", right? Death was your own eventuality anyway.

    So in the BIG PICTURE, sure it's a "horror" to die early by getting "killled". It's a horror dying of old age too. But it's only a horror if you're not coming back. Death doesn't have a real sting unless it's permanent.

    You know, what if Benny Hinn decided he didn't like the State of Texas' death penalty, he thought it was wrong and so everybody they executed he went to their grave and raised them up to life again the next day? What would that do as far as death being a deterrant to crime?

    No. It's not really "death" that's the issue or killing, if it is only "temporary." It's permanent eternal life or permanent eternal death that makes the difference.

    So everybody has to die. Everybody. Even Jesus Christ. This allows God to say "bye-bye" to Satan and everybody he doesn't like. After that theoretic death, though, it is then up to him to bring back whom he wishes and give them eternal life if he wishes. That's his right. He is not obligated to have you born and not obligated to give you eternal life. Those are both gifts.

    JC

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    As far as books presenting an argument for the Jesus character being mythical, Wells' book as suggested is good. He is in a funny place now as he seems to have swayed back to the minimalist historical Jesus camp. But his reasons for doing so are personal, (I believe he took too much heat.) Earl Doherty has a book entitled 'The Jesus Puzzle' that has introduced millions to the idea. It has a few minor errors and some subjective reconstructions but is a fair attempt to sort out the puzzle. Robert Price is my favorite author at late. His book "the Incredible Shrinking Son of Man' attempts to unravel the Bible's description. While not a purist Jesus Myther, Price has moved in that direction after once having dismissed the notion.

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