Being a post atheist

by Bas 9 Replies latest jw friends

  • Bas
    Bas

    small summary of my spiritual state/development:

    Post Atheist to me means I don't even find the question if there is a God important enough to lable myself as someone who doesn't believe in it, it means I actually find the whole question irrelevant, discussing it is irrelevant (trying to prove God doesn't exist is just futile), I just don't believe it, and leaving it behind me...

    As for how the world works, I'm a determinist and I like to lable myself that though I don't really believe in lableing either. Determinism is great for understanding things/world/nature/people but a pain as a practicle filosophy to make decisions by, kind of paralysing... In daily life I believe in balance in all things, giving and receiving, working and resting, socialising and taking time for myself, and other things besides that. Besides that there are countless wisdoms and philosophies that help you live your life, far too many to list here. Some are very old, cliches, some are from the bible (or the writers of the bible were aware of them), but most I believe you learn through living....

    so take it easy and live your life, peace

    Bas

    PS, i came up with the term and definition of post-atheist myself, not sure if there's another definition of it....

  • DannyBloem
    DannyBloem

    Hoi Bas,

    I'm atheist also, but probably do not fit exactly in your description. I think that thinking about the question is relevant.

    Anyway why the determinism?

    Danny

  • Bas
    Bas

    determinism says that everything happens through the cause and effect principle, seems reasonable eh? Anyway, I've called myself a determinist for years now and discussed it alot, it's a fact to me now (it's not on my mind so much anymore). To fully realize and accept this filosophy takes alot of time and thinking though, check out this page: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/

    Determinism: The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law.

    Bas

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    Very interesting topic. I have also had some semantic difficulties with the term "atheist". I categorically deny the existence of a "god" in any religious sense (or in any supernatural mode, for that matter!) but to me, the term "atheist" presupposes that there is actually something to deny, which seems like a logical contradiction. I have considered the term "Pre-Deist" with the underlying assumption that 1) the whole concept of a deity is a socially imposed psychological construct artifically placed in the mind by conditioning thus to be "Pre-Deist" simply means a wishful return to a pre-conditioned "god-free" state of mind, and does not necessitate the active denial of a pre-existing, artificially place mental construct. But all in all, I guess "atheist" seems to have more universal cachet. Ah the joys of semantic adventures.

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    Interesting viewpoint. Personally, I am a fundamentalist atheist. I believe that atheism is the only "true" belief system, and that God will kill everyone who disagrees with it.

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    welcome to the board kid-A!

    i like your reasoning. it's true that strong atheism makes positive assertions, and therefore they are required to provide proof for those positive assertions, IMO. saying that god does not exist is almost as indefensible as saying he does. of course they have the rule of parsimony on their side as far as probability is concerned, but that's about it.

    but to me, the term "atheist" presupposes that there is actually something to deny, which seems like a logical contradiction.

    however, weak atheism is simply a lack of belief in a deity. this label is more of a response to theist's claims of a deity, than it is a position. it is a place holder like the number zero is a place holder for a system. it doesn't exist, but we still use it to solve problems. this, incidentally is where i find myself. agnosticism seems a bit mentally lazy, to me, but paradoxically may be the truest position one can hold.

    i am just reading the Science of Good and Evil by Michael Shermer. there, he describes himself as an "agnostic/non-theist". he says agnostic because it is one of the most scientific stances to take. and it's true to an extent, me thinks, because strong atheism and theism are both impossible to prove scientifically, and may always be so. and non-theist because if cornered, he will fall on the side of atheism and live his life accordingly. he also has a good point that non-theist does not come with all the erroneous baggage that "atheist" does, like communism etc.

    i look forward to seeing you around!

    Post Atheist to me means I don't even find the question if there is a God important enough to lable myself as someone who doesn't believe in it, it means I actually find the whole question irrelevant, discussing it is irrelevant (trying to prove God doesn't exist is just futile), I just don't believe it, and leaving it behind me...

    i like your term, Bas, and it speaks to me. i agree also that it is futile to try to prove the non-existence of god. in my opinion it is like trying to prove the non-existence of aliens. they may or may not exist. but i do think that debating theists is an important thing for humanity. what i mean by this is that, while i recognize that the positions of the theist and atheist are even more entrenched after a debate(even after a constructive debate), i do think that it is a good thing for fence sitters or curious folk to witness the debate. at the very least, it can help them question the way they view the world and existence.

    i am glad you are at the point where you can just leave the question behind. like you say, it is an irrelevant question in it's most basic sense. if no one had made the meme up in the first place there wouldn't be atheists or theists.

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    Thank you for the welcome, Tetrapod. I always enjoy your posts. I do agree that the term "atheist" serves (at least for me) as a convenient descriptor, regardless of its inherent semantic/logical conumdrums. You are right, "agnostic" as a label and "agnosticism" as a mode of thinking about religion/god etc is indeed a more empirical approach to the problem of terminology. As a hardcore biologist and evolutionist, I am naturally biased against any sort of hocus pocus, but clearly the use of the term "agnostic" simply as a means of admitting "I dont know" is a more logical approach. I agree with you though, I do find it to be hand waving and a sort of learned helplessness to hear people say "well I just dont know if there is a god" because in my personal experience, I have found that this sort of thinking leads to apathy and clinging to religious delusions rather than simply walking away. I am in research, so I guess I am always biased towards arriving at an empirically derived (albeit conditional) result in order to support my hypotheses (null hypothesis or otherwise!)

    cheers

  • Bas
    Bas

    Welcome Kid-A, I like the concept of Pre-deism like you describe it, made me think. I thought pre-deists would actually have been alot like agnostics (though not aware of it) and when i thought they would first encounter someone who was preaching the existence of God I had this funny mental image of some of those people turning into atheists, saying like; "you're lying!!! you're trying to make me crazy!!, YOU are crazy!!!" and stuff. But then again, peoples and lands had polytheism long before the bible was born, to explain among other things natural phenomena; these people were already used to the idea of god.

    Anyway, I would describe some of the laid back traits of agnosticism to post-determinism too, like you're not trying to convince anybody of anything. I used to go back and forth between atheism and agnosticism all the time but I'm finally past that, thank Gawd . If agnosticism leads to apathy, I would have to disagree with that to a good degree. I don't think agnostic minded people cling onto religious delusions that much as maybe the biggest group agnostics are people that never belonged to a church and never have given the whole thing much thought (they'd almost be a bit pre-deist like in that way) However, the group that does belong to a church might have problems with losing their religion, a (big) part of their identity, which might indeed lead to (temporary) apathy in some cases, with worse effects for the members of the more "fundamentalist" brands of religion like the WTBTS.

    hey tetrapod, I also think discussing theism is very important, but I don't think the yes-no debate is very fruitful, avoided that for long time already, rather discuss closely related issues like the bible being a product of man, or making thought provoking remarks like: "the devil and god are really one and the same deity", "God is very very tired and needs rest, yall keeping him awake with your constant whining", "stop looking up and help your fellow human being", or anything that I think of that makes me wonder how a "believer" would respond to it.

    But I would never say belief in God bad or that organised religion is all bad...

    Bas (of the post-atheist class)

  • GetBusyLiving
    GetBusyLiving

    I don't really dwell too much on it. I try to be grateful for the life I'm living, the chance I have to learn and keep growing as a person. To me it's all kind of a label and doesn't really mean anything. I can't help the way I am and what I think.. I have no choice but to not believe in God. For me its the only logical conclusion to come to. I read a Watchtower last night to a Christian friend of mine to show him the subtle brainwashing they use. It was so sureal to read that stuff now. To me it seems no less wacky than any Scientologist or any other type of cult material. I can't change the way I think.. I'm an atheist now and thats just how it is.



  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien
    But I would never say belief in God bad or that organised religion is all bad...

    that's pretty generous of you Bas, but i admit is also realistic and, probably, the mature outlook to hold. plus, religion and belief in god has held our species together in survival groups and tribes for a long time. in that sense, i thank religion. however, call me idealistic (i don't mind), but the time has come in our history to throw down the indefensible to where is belongs in the anal's of history. at this point in time and IMO, belief in God is bad, and so is all religion. i could be wrong, and i guess i doesn't matter to me if i am.

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