by TheListener 7 Replies latest watchtower bible
http://www.touchstoneforum.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.pl?az=read_count&om=1299&forum=DCForumID2
They seem to have a very long discussion going on about 607 and its validity (of course to them it's completely valid).
The chart I linked to is pretty interesting.
Edited: OK the link isn't working. Oh man; this is frustrating. the discussion is at : touchstoneforum.com under the thread "Bible Math"
Try this link: http://www.touchstoneforum.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.pl?az=read_count&om=1299&forum=DCForumID2
I would be curious to see a rebuttal and know the background of "Wrench". Is he a JW?
It seems the argument is in 3 parts. This is his third segement that sums up his pro-607 argument:
We find written in the scriptures, words concerning the city of Tyre and its demise that connects with our discussion of secular chronology and its accuracy from a Biblical standpoint.
We have seen from Part 1 that Bible believer's can not accept VAT 4956 as an accurate recording of history as it does not allow for the 40 year desolation of Egypt at the hand of Nebuchadnezzar. (See Part 1) We have seen on the other hand that SK 400 establishes 539 BCE as the year when Babylon fell to Cyrus yet it can not be implicitly trusted as it reportedly contains some scribal errors. What we will now consider is another piece of history and prophecy revealed from the Bible that calls into question the reliability of secular chronology. This, as mentioned above, has to do with the city of Tyre and what was to befall it according to Bible prophecy.Let us take a look at Isaiah 23 and what it has to say about what was to happen to Tyre and for how long.
Isaiah 23:
13 Look! The land of the Chal•de´ans. This is the people—As•syr´i•a did not prove to be —they founded her for the desert haunters. They have erected their siege towers; they have stripped bare her dwelling towers; one has set her as a crumbling ruin.
14 Howl, YOU ships of Tar´shish, for YOUR stronghold has been despoiled.15 And it must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king. At the end of seventy years it will happen to Tyre as in the song of a prostitute: 16 “Take a harp, go around the city, O forgotten prostitute. Do your best at playing on the strings; make your songs many, in order that you may be remembered.”
17 And it must occur at the end of seventy years that Jehovah will turn his attention to Tyre, and she must return to her hire and commit prostitution with all the kingdoms of the earth upon the surface of the ground. 18 And her profit and her hire must become something holy to Jehovah. It will not be stored up, nor be laid up, because her hire will come to be for those dwelling before Jehovah, for eating to satisfaction and for elegant covering."
Here we see stated that Tyre will be forgotten for seventy years. The seventy year period is thrice mentioned as the period that Tyre will be forgotten. We can also see that this will be caused by the Chaldeans. The Chaldeans are also known as Babylonians.
It is stated that the Babylonians will erect siege towers in this ruination that it causes. However, it must be noted that it does not say Tyre will be desolate during this seventy years. It states that it will be forgotten. A seventy year desolation is not necessary in these words.
Tyre was a great city that did much trade by means of the sea which it bordered, even having an island section to the city. This ruination is why the ships of Tarshish should howl, as their stronghold (Tyre) would be despoiled. Tyre would be a forgotten city for seventy years due to this ruination performed by the Chaldeans.
After the seventy years it is stated that Tyre will return to her hire and that her hire will actually be something holy to Jehovah because her hire "will come to be for those dwelling before Jehovah, for eating to satisfaction and for elegant covering."
How did these prophetic events unfold?
Ezekiel 26:1-21
1 And it came about in the eleventh year, on the first of the month, that the word of Jehovah occurred to me, saying: 2 “Son of man, for the reason that Tyre has said against Jerusalem, ‘Aha! She has been broken, the doors of the peoples! The trend will certainly be to me. I shall be filled—she has been devastated,’ 3 therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Here I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring up against you many nations, just as the sea brings up its waves. 4 And they will certainly bring the walls of Tyre to ruin and tear down her towers, and I will scrape her dust away from her and make her a shining, bare surface of a crag. 5 A drying yard for dragnets is what she will become in the midst of the sea.’
“‘For I myself have spoken,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘and she must become an object of plunder for the nations. 6 And her dependent towns that are in the field—by the sword they will be killed, and people will have to know that I am Jehovah.’7 “For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Here I am bringing against Tyre Neb•u•chad•rez´zar the king of Babylon from the north, a king of kings, with horses and war chariots and cavalrymen and a congregation, even a multitudinous people. 8 Your dependent towns in the field he will kill even with the sword, and he must make against you a siege wall and throw up against you a siege rampart and raise up against you a large shield; 9 and the strike of his attack engine he will direct against your walls, and your towers he will pull down, with his swords. 10 Owing to the heaving mass of his horses their dust will cover you. Owing to the sound of cavalryman and wheel and war chariot your walls will rock, when he comes in through your gates, as in the cases of entering into a city opened by breaches. 11 With the hoofs of his horses he will trample down all your streets. Your people he will kill even with the sword, and to the earth your own pillars of strength will go down. 12 And they will certainly spoil your resources and plunder your sales goods, and tear down your walls, and your desirable houses they will pull down. And your stones and your woodwork and your dust they will place in the very midst of the water.’
And they must raise up over you a dirge and say to you:
“‘“How you have perished, that used to be inhabited from the seas, O praised city, who became a strong one in the sea, she and those inhabiting her, those who gave their terror to all the inhabitants ! 18 Now the islands will tremble in the day of your downfall. And the islands that are in the sea must be disturbed owing to your going out.”’
Isaiah informed us that the Chaldeans would come at Tyre with their erected siege towers and would cause her to crumble. Ezekiel is told of this fulfillment in another prophecy to him here in his 11th year. First let us determine when this 11th year would have occurred according to secular chronology.
You will recall in the first installment of this presentation entitled: VAT 4956, SK400, 607 BCE, 587 BCE AND EGYPT'S DESOLATION OF 40 YEARS, it was determined that the 27th year of Ezekiel would have coincided with Nebuchadnezzar's 35th year which would have been the year 570 BCE according to secular chronology. Please review the reasons for that in that post as there is no reason to repeat that line of reasoning here.
Now, if Ezekiel’s 27th year was 570/1 BCE, then Ezekiel's 11th year would 16 years earlier or 586/7. That would also coincide with Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year. It can be easily deduced then that Ezekiel received this vision in the year the Jerusalem was destroyed, that being 587 BCE according to the "secular" chronology.
This explains why Tyre was boasting and rejoicing over the fact that Jerusalem had been brought down. It was the result of this boasting that evidently prompted Jehovah to bring the punishment mentioned in Isaiah, which was Tyre being forgotten seventy years, and to reveal this intent to Ezekiel.
It took about 13 years for Nebuchadnezzar to subdue Tyre, It was evidently a long and drawn out affair. This siege and battle against Tyre, even before the 13 years were ended, ruined her stature that she had enjoyed before. As far as her trading goods she was forgotten from the time Nebuchadnezzar started his seige until this seventy years were ended and she would once again be employed, even by Jehovah himself.
Here is the beginning of the problem for secular chronology. If Tyre being forgotten started in 587 BCE, she would have to be forgotten until the year 517 BCE before being employed once again, even by Jehovah. Is that what happened? No ,it is not.
We know that the Jews were back in their homeland at least by the year 537 BCE. What do we find out about the Tyrians at this time. We find that they were "immediately" employed by Jehovah. This is proven by what we find in Ezra.
Ezra 3:1-13
1 When the seventh month arrived the sons of Israel were in cities. And the people began to gather themselves as one man to Jerusalem. 2 And Jesh´u•a the son of Je•hoz´a•dak and his brothers the priests and Ze•rub´ba•bel the son of She•al´ti•el and his brothers proceeded to rise up and build the altar of the God of Israel, to offer up burnt sacrifices upon it, according to what is written in the law of Moses the man of the God.
3 So they established the altar firmly upon its own site, for fright upon them because of the peoples of the lands, and they began offering up burnt sacrifices to Jehovah upon it, the burnt sacrifices of the morning and of the evening. 4 Then they held the festival of booths according to what is written, with the burnt sacrifices day by day in number according to the rule of what was due each day. 5 And afterward there was the constant burnt offering and that for the new moons and for all the sanctified festival seasons of Jehovah and for everyone that willingly offered a voluntary offering to Jehovah. 6 From the first day of the seventh month on they started to offer up burnt sacrifices to Jehovah, when the foundation of Jehovah’s temple itself had not yet been laid.7 And they proceeded to give money to the cutters and to the craftsmen, and eatables and drink and oil to the Si•do´ni•ans and the Tyr´i•ans, to bring cedar timbers from Leb´a•non to the sea at Jop´pa, according to the permission granted by Cyrus the king of Persia to them.
Here we see undeniably that Cyrus granted Tyre to once again to be remembered and even employed by Jehovah himself to bring trees for the restoration of the temple. Therefore, the forgotten time of Tyre from 587 BCE to 537 BCE would have only been about 50 years at most. Remember, Jehovah told Isaiah at the "end" of the "seventy years" she would return to her hire. Significantly this is almost exactly a "twenty year" difference being requested by the Bible's chronology as opposed to 'secular" chronology.
Even if someone wanted to argue that the "seventy years" was some "round" figure for whatever reason, "50" comes no where close to being a round figure for 70.
(PLEASE REFERENCE THE CHARTS BELOW TO HELP VISUALIZE THIS INFORMATION)
This is the second witness we have seen spelled out in the scriptures as to why Christians can "not" accept the pre-539 BCE secular chronology centered around the "tent peg" of VAT 4956. However, once again, none of this is in contradiction with SK400 which also establishes 539 BCE as the overthrow of Babylon by Cyrus, but this "tent peg" (although somewhat questionable) is figured from post 539 BCE. Our first witness was the 40 year desolation of Egypt which secular chronology does not allow for. This second witness demonstrates that the secular chronology does not allow enough time for Tyre to have been forgotten for "seventy" years.
Once again, those who respect the prophecies of the scriptures as undeniable are in a position where they must reject the secular chronology champion known as VAT 4956 as a valid piece in history and the at the very least, the pre-539 secular chronology based upon it.
Our next installment will deal with one more piece of "time" that the secular chronolgy does not allow for.
Best regards,
Wrench
Next chart:
From my reading of touchstoneforum in the past; Wrench is the administrator/owner. He is a JW and a staunch pro-jw at that. He seems to have very good analytical and debating skills. Another excellent analyst and debater is the poster over there known as DrivesLikeJehu. These two are willing to discuss issues although they would never agree that the WTS is wrong about anything.
As far as a critique of his information and charts: I would love to see that also.
My only comment so far is that I wasn't aware that Tyre's 70 year forgottenness was directly connected to Jerusalem's destruction.
I'll have to review this. But, I know there are way smarter people here with a better understanding of this subject than me. I'll really be looking for their comments (and yours Ezekiel3).
Ezekiel3's official comment: Pro-607ers are too "Tyred".
I recall hearing about this argument based on a supposed desolation of 40 years for Egypt. The problem is that there is no evidence that Egypt -- a country that had a huge population even back then -- was stripped of inhabitants for 40 years anywhere in the 6th century B.C. If it can be argued successfully that the Bible definitely speaks of such a period, then it's wrong. But just as the Bible predicted that Tyre would be desolated for 70 years, and that never happened for a full 70 years, I suspect that this "Wrench" is missing something.
AlanF
Well, interesting debate! We finally get past the 70 years of desolation an to the 40 years of Egypt. I doubt if anyone will follow this but here's the ACTUAL chronology critical points.
1. the VAT4956 "errors" in lines 3 and 14 are not smiple "scribal errors". They specifically belong tot he same lunar cycle and can be matched to 511BCE. That is, Line 3 that says the Moon was 1 cubit in front of the Rear Foot of the Lion on the 9th of Nisan can be astronomically matched to 511BCE. Use an astroprogram to look it up. And the other ntoed error in Line 14 (by Neugebaurer) of the moon 1 cubit above/below the bright star behind the Lion's Foot, which matches beta-Virginis per Line 18, on the 5th of Sivan, the third month, is in the same lunar cycle and precise match to 511BCE. It is not likely that two "scribal errors" from those guesing about this information would be included in such an important text rather than be simply left out versus an intentional reference to an original chronology that had been revised in which case 511BCE would be alternatively dated by the VAT4956 as year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar.
2. The SK400. Same goes for this text. More "errors", but the interval between the two eclipses that don't match perfectly to 523BCE for "year 7" of Kambyses is the precise eclipse interval in 541BCE. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. It's too specific not to presume an intentional reference. But if so, dating year 7 in 541BCE to Nebuchadnezzar is the same chronology as the VAT4956 dating year 37 by "errors" to 511BCE. Coincidence? No way! These are cryptic references to an original chronology changed for political reasons. Once you get to this point, then you can deal with the reality of the 40 years of Egypt.
THE 40 YEARS FOR EGYPT, WHEN? The Bible dates the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE by the 70 weeks prophecy since the "word going forth to rebuild Jerusalem is 483 years from the baptism of Christ. If 455BCE is the 1st of Cyrus then 70 years earlier in 525BCE dates the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar which now matches #1 and #2. That is, dating the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE and adding 70 years gives you year 23 in 525BCE, which matches year 7 in 541BCE per the SK400 and year 37 in 511BCE per the VAT4956, based upon the cryptic "errors" in the latter texts.
Having noted that, we include the reference by Josephus in Antiquities 11.1.1 where he notes that the 70 years of "servitude" to fulfill Jeremiah's prophecy was fulfilled by the "poor people" who were last deported in year 23 of Nebuchandezzar.
This contradicts the Babylonian chronology of course, making the Babylonian Period 26 years longer than the surviving Babylonian general records show, but not the cryptic double-references in the VAT4956 and the SK400 if it is presumed these reference the original chronology. Having noted that, ther eis no problem with Egypt being desolated for 40 years as the Bible prophesied which would begin around the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar in 511BCE and end 40 years later in 471BCE. This is 9 years before the fall of Babylon in 462BCE per this chronology which fits other historical references that Egypt was repopulated by the time Cyrus conquers Babylon. This 40 years of desolation of Egypt is not possible with the revised and reduced Neo-Babylonian Period, however.
Those discussing this topic at the other newsgroup don't have the up-to-date information that the "errors" in the VAT4956 and the SK400 can be manipulated to match the 455BCE chronology for the 1st of Cyrus. That is, the double-dating in each text dismisses their validity for the promoted dates of year 7 for Kambyses in 523BCE and year 568BCE for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar. But when you use the cryptic dating in both texts, which is in complete (coincidental? hardly!) agreement with the Biblical chronology for the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE, the 40 years of Egypt being desolated has no problems.
Of note, though, about the time the 40 years of desolation was to end, an Egyptian dyansty ends. It would interesting to look at precisely which kingships we are looking at and what supports their reigns for this period. It shouldn't be that difficult since Pharoah Necho is well-established in the Babylonian chronology during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar and the king ruling in his 37th year is the king that would have been deposed. I havent' lookd recently (perhaps I should now) but a dynasy ends around this time per Egyptian chronology. But Egyptian chronology is a BIG MESS with little able to be confirmed sometmies, so that's another story.
HERE'S THE BASICS FOR WHAT THE BIBLE LAYS OUT FROM THE FALL OF JERUSALEM TO THE RETURN, NO DATES:
19th of Nebuchadnezzar, Fall of Jerusalem, 74 years to the 1st of Cyrus. Jerusalem to drink the bitter cup before the nations including Tyre.
23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar, the 70 years for Tyre and other nations and complete desolation of the land including deportation of the last Jews. Archaeology confirms a 70-80 year period of desolation for some excvations such as Ashkelon to confirm this period of destruction by the Babylonians followed by the Persian Period.
24-25th years of Nebuchadnezzar: After Nebuchadnezzar had conquered all and desolated the entire land of Israel and Judah, though Egypt was spared, he felt pride and bragged about his greatness. A year after this bragging God smote him and he became a beast in the field for 7 years. Thus sometime from his 31st to 32nd years, where we have no records from Babylon. But his throne was preserved.
Year 37: We have Babylonian records plus the Biblical record that Nebuchadnezzar invaded Egypt this year. From here we can count 40 years. From year 23 to yar 37 is 14 years which leaves 56 out of the 70. After 40 years you have 16 years left. Babylon falls 6 years before the 70 years is over, so Egypt has 10 years to redevelop after the 40 years is over allowing plenty of time for them to assist the Babylonians in opposing Cyrus and Darius the Mede when the Medo-Persians began to attack Babylon during the reign of Nabonidus.
FINAL COMMENT: Those believing in 537BCE and 607BCE and even 539BCE are in error for not initially trusting the Bible and dating the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE instead of relying upon revised Babylonian and Persian records. Those who originally accepted the Biblical chronology which dates the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE now have both the VAT4956 and the SK400 as extra-Biblical evidence of this chronology and every reason to dismiss the two texts as manipulated and conspiratorial. In the end, the Bible is vindicated totally!
BUT DON'T STOP HERE!!! Use RELATIVE CHRONOLOGY to figure out which pharoah/s were ruling after the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar to see what is said about them and if their rulerships are truly substantiated or just filled in! There should be some scanty evidence for this period of pharoahs if the Bible is true and Egypt was desolated for these 40 years.
I suppose I'll have to look into this now further, but if the Bible is true, there sould be some inconsistencies in the Egyptian record 37 years or so after the fall of Necho by Nebuchadnezzar, and event you can coordinate with Babylonian, Biblical and Egyptian records. Do the research. Who knows? Something interesting might just pop up.
JC
Alright I am bringing this back up because I'm hoping some posters here have some comments. The last time this was dicussed JCanon killed my thread.
I am interested in this issue because I expect the society or individual witnesses to begin using it as a 607 crutch.
