My take on certain doctrines...

by sinis 2 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • sinis
    sinis

    1) I firmly believe from my studies/research that the 144,000 is a figurative number and no one but Jehovah knows the exact number of those who will be rulers in his kingdom. I do not know why the WTS picks and chooses the literal and figurative numbers in Revelation. Makes no sense to me. John at the beginning of Revelation indicates that it is a vision, thus not literal. You cannot accept the number 666 as being figurative but a few scriptures later say 144,000 is literal. That and the tribes are not even literal! Also, if you want to get technical, the only ones who are to be chosen by Jehovah would have to be martyrs, beheaded, etc. to be a ruler/priest.

    2) I have come to the conclusion that 1914 is not the year that christ took power and cast satan to the earth. I believe that this is a future date and that we have not even come close to see the wickedness that will prevail when satan is cast down and pissed because he time is short and demise is near.

    3) The other thing I have found is that the bible in Revelation, etc. indicates that no one goes to heaven, they will rule ON earth as kings, priests, which is basically a parallel of the ancient Jewish priest setup. All indications in the scriptures is that the reward is safeguarded in heaven. This does not mean that the reward is IN heaven but that the reward is being safeguarded in heaven. Also, the english translation from the original Greek has been mistranslated through the ages. The idea of a heavenly reward did not com into existance until the time of the Inquisition. Hell was a doctrine being promoted at the time as a punishment but the Church realized that they may be executing innocent people. So to but the peoples mind at rest they concocted the idea that if you were good/righteous you would go to heaven.

    I did have a question that I could not find an answer to. Since the new covenant was established to forgive men of there sins should everyone partake? I realize the whole two clss thing is a sham also - Jesus when speaking to the Pharasis indicated that others would be a part of this fold - which indicated that he would not just offer the message to the Jews but eventually ALL people. Can anyone provide scriptures, etc. that might indicate that all should partake or is it just reserved for those that Jehovah as chosen to be priests or kings in his government? Thanks.

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    hi sinis!

    i haven't had a chance to welcome you to the board yet.

    you're right on: the WTS doctrine is mostly mind garbage.

    Since the new covenant was established to forgive men of there sins should everyone partake?

    yes.

    best wishes on your journey,

    TS

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    The idea of a heavenly reward did not com into existance until the time of the Inquisition. Hell was a doctrine being promoted at the time as a punishment but the Church realized that they may be executing innocent people. So to but the peoples mind at rest they concocted the idea that if you were good/righteous you would go to heaven.

    On the expected heavenly reward and punishment of the wicked in early Judaism and Christianity:

    "When that time comes, your own people will be spared, all those whose names are found written in the book. Of those who lie sleeping in the dust of the earth many will awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting disgrace. The wise will shine as brightly as the vault of heaven, and those who have instructed many in virtue will shine as bright as stars for all eternity" (Daniel 12:1-3).

    "Michael turned the chariot and brought Abraham toward the east, to the first gate of heaven. And Abraham saw two ways. The first way was straight and narrow and the other broad and spacious....When [Adam] sees many souls entering through the straight gate, then he arises and sits on his throne rejoicing and exulting cherrfully, because this straight gate is the gate of the righteous, which leads to life, and those who enter through it come into Paradise. And on account of this, the first-formed Adam rejoices, since he sees the souls being saved. And when he sees many souls entering through the broad gate, then he pulls the hair of his head and casts himself on the ground crying and wailing bitterly; for the broad gate is the gate of sinners, which leads to destruction and eternal punishment" (Testament of Abraham A:11:1-11).

    "[Michael the archangel and his attendants] buried him in the promised land at the oak of Mamre, while the angels escorted his precious soul and ascended into heaven singing the thrice-holy hymn to God...The undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus: 'Take, then, my friend Abraham into Paradise, where are the tents of my righteous ones, and where the mansions of my holy ones, Isaac and Jacob, are in his bosom, where there is no toil, no grief, no moaning, but peace and exultation and endless life' " (Testament of Abraham A:20:11-14).

    "These beautiful corners are here in order that the spirits of the souls of the dead should assemble into them, they are created so that the souls of the children of the people should gather here. They prepared these places in order the put them there until the day of their judgment and the appointed time of the great judgment upon them....These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated by this spring of water with light upon it, and in like manner, the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime, upon this great pain, until the great day of judgment -- and to those who curse there will be plague and pain forever, even if from the beginning of the world" (1 Enoch 22:3-5, 9-11).

    "This accursed valley [i.e. Gehenna] is for those accursed forever; here will gather together all those accursed ones, those who speak with their mouth unbecoming words against the Lord and utter harsh words concerning his glory [compare Jude 14-16]. Here shall they be gathered forever, and here shall be their judgment in the last days. There will be upon them the spectacle of the righteous judgment, in the presence of the righteous forever" (1 Enoch 27:2-3).

    "In those days, whirlwinds carried me off from the earth, and set me down into the ultimate ends of the heavens, and I saw other dwelling places of the holy ones and the resting places of the righteous ones. So there my eyes saw their dwelling places with the holy angels, and their resting places with the holy ones, and they interceded and petitioned and prayed on behalf of the children of the people, and righteousness flowed before them like water, and mercy like dew upon the earth, and thus it is in their midst forever and ever" (1 Enoch 39:3-5).

    "In those days the angels shall descend into the secret places. They shall gather together into one place all those who gave aid to sin. And the Most High will arise on that day of judgment in order to execute a great judgment upon all the sinners...Woe to you sinners, when you oppress the righteous ones, in the day of hard anguish, and burn them with fire! You shall be recompensed for your deeds...On account of the deeds of your wicked ones, in blazing flames worse than fire, it shall burn" (1 Enoch 100:4-5, 7, 9).

    "The spirits of those who died in righteousness shall live and rejoice; their spirits shall not perish, nor their memorial from before the face of the Great One unto all the generations of the world. Therefore, do not worry about their humiliation. Woe unto you sinners who are dead! When you are dead in the wealth of your sins ... you have died in glory, and there was no judgment in your lifetime. You yourselves know that they will bring your souls down to Sheol; and they shall experience evil and great tribulation, in darkness, nets, and burning flame. Your souls shall enter into the great judgment; it shall be a great judgment in all the generations of the world. Woe to you, for there is no peace for you!" (1 Enoch 103:4-8).

    "In heaven the angels will remember you for good before the glory of the Great One; and your names shall be written before the glory of the Great One. Be hopeful, because formerly you have pined away through evil and toil. But now you shall shine like the lights of heaven, and you shall be seen; and the windows of heaven shall be opened for you and ... you will make a great rejoicing like the angels of heaven" (1 Enoch 104:1-4).

    "Let us not fear him who thinks he is killing us, for great is the struggle of the soul and the danger of eternal torment lying before those who transgress the commandments of God. Therefore let us put on the full armour of self-control, which is divine reason. For if we so die, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob will welcome us, and all the fathers will praise us...The sons of Abraham with their victorious mother are gathered together into the chorus of the fathers, and have received pure and immortal souls from God" (4 Maccabees 10:4, 18:23-24).

    "Then shall we [the twelve sons of Jacob] be raised, each of us over our tribe, and we shall prostrate ourselves before the heavenly king. Then all shall be changed, some destined for glory, others for dishonor, for the Lord first judges Israel for the wrong she has committed and then he shall do the same for all the nations" (Testament of Benjamin 10:6-9).

    "The earth shall give up those who are asleep in it; and the chambers shall give up the souls which have been committed to them. And the Most High shall be revealed upon the seat of judgment, and compassion shall pass away, and patience shall be withdrawn; but judgment alone shall remain, truth shall stand, and faithfulness shall grow strong. And recompense shall follow, and the reward shall be manifested; righteous deeds shall awake, and unrighteous deeds shall not sleep. Then the pit of torment shall appear, and opposite it the place of rest; and the furnace of Gehenna shall be disclosed, and opposite it the Paradise of delight. Then the Most High will say to the nations that have been raised from the dead, 'Look now, and understand whom you have denied, whom you have not served, whose commandments you have despised! Look on this side and on that; here are delight and rest, and there are fire and torments!" (4 Ezra 7:32-38).

    "And it will happen at that time that those treasuries will be opened in which the number of the souls of the righteous were kept, and they will go out and the multitudes of the souls will appear together, in one assemblage, of one mind. And the first ones will enjoy themselves and the last ones will not be sad. For they know that the time has come of which it is said that it is the end of times. But the souls of the wicked will the more waste away when they shall see all these things. For they know that their torment has come and that their perditions have arrived... The shape of those who now act wickedly will be made more evil than it is now so that they shall suffer torment. As for the glory of those who proved to be righteous ... their splendor will then be glorified by transformations, and the shape of their face will be changed into the light of their beauty ... Both these and those will be changed, these into the splendor of angels and those into startling visions and horrible shapes; and they will waste away even more. For they will first see and then they will go away to be tormented....[The righteous] will live in the heights of that world and they will be like the angels and equal to the stars. And they will be changed into any shape which they wished, from beauty to loveliness, and from light to the splendor of glory. For the extents of Paradise will be spread out to them" (2 Baruch 30:1-5, 51:1-6, 11).

    "The people who depart from this life in accordance with nature's law, thus repaying what God had lent them, when the giver wants to claim it back again, win everlasting fame. Their houses and families are secure. Their souls remain without blemish, and obedient, and receive the most holy place in heaven. From there, when the ages come round again, they come back again to live instead in holy bodies. But when people lay hands upon themselves in a fit of madness, the darker regions of Hades receive their souls" (Josephus, Jewish War, 3.374f).

    "The Pharisees ... hold that every soul is immortal, but that only the souls of the virtuous pass on into another body, while those of the wicked are punished with an everlasting vengeance" (Josephus, Jewish War, 2.163).

    "The Pharisees ... believe that souls have immortal power, and that there are rewards and punishments under the earth for those who have done well or badly in their life. Evil souls receive eternal imprisonment, while virtuous ones have an easy route to a new life" (Josephus, Antiquities 18.14).

    "But when the years appointed for the world have been fulfilled ... I will bring the dead to life and raise up those who are sleeping in the earth. And Hades will pay back its debt, and the place of perdition will return its deposit so I may render to each according to his works and according to the fruits of his own devices, until I judge between soul and flesh....And there will be another earth and another heaven, an everlasting dwelling place" (Pseudo-Philo 3:10).

    "Even now the axe is laid to the roots of the trees, so that any tree which fails to produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown on the fire... He will clear his threashing floor and gather his wheat into the barn; but the chaff he will burn in a fire that will never go out" (Matthew 3:10, 12).

    "I tell you, many will come from east and west and will sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom will be thrown out into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 8:11).

    "I tell you that it will not go as hard on Judgment Day with Tyre and Sidon as with you. And as for you, Capernaum, did you want to be exalted as high as heaven? You shall be thrown down to Gehenna...It will not go as hard with the land of Sodom on Judgment Day as with you" (Matthew 11:21-24).

    "Just as the darnel is gathered up and burnt in the fire, so it will be at the end of time. The Son of Man will send his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that provoke offences and all who do evil, and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth. Then the virtuous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Matthew 13:40-43).

    "They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet to gather his chosen from the four winds, from one end of ehaven to the other...All the nations will be assembled before him and he will separate men one from another as the shepherd separates sheep from goats. He will place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right hand, 'Come, you whom my Father has blessed, take for your heritage the kingdom prepared for you since the foundation of the world'....Next he will say to those on his left hand, 'Go away from me, with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels'....And they go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life" (Matthew 24:30-31, 25:31-46).

    "Do not be surprised at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice, and will come out; those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29).

    "There are heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the heavenly bodies have a glory of their own and the earthly bodies a different one...The first man, being of the earth, is earthly by nature; the second man is from heaven. As this earthly man was, so are we on earth; and as the heavenly man is, so are we in heaven...Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and the perishable cannot inherit what lasts forever. I will tell you a secret: we are not all going to die, but we shall be changed. This will be instantaneous, in the twinkling of an eye, when the last trumpet sounds. It will sound, and the dead will be raised, imperishable and we shall be changed as well, becuase our present perishable nature must put on imperishability and this mortal nature must put on immortality....At the trumpet of God, the voice of the archangel will call out the command and the Lord himself will come down from heaven; those who have died in Christ will the first to rise, and then those of us who are still alive will be taken up in the clouds, together with them, to meet the Lord in the air. So we shall stay with the Lord forever" (1 Corinthians 15:40, 47-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

    "For we know that when the tent that we live in on earth is folded up, there is a house built by God for us, an everlasting home not made by human hands, in the heavens. In this present state, it is true, we groan as we wait with longing to put on our heavenly home over the other...Whether we are living in the body or exiled from it, we are intent on pleasing him" (2 Corinthians 5:1-4, 9).

    "I am caught in this dilemma: I want to depart and be with Christ, which would be very much the better, but for me to remain in this body is a more urgent need for your sake...For us, our citizenship is in heaven, and from heaven comes the Savior we are waiting for, the Lord Jesus Christ, and he will transfigure these wretched bodies of ours into copies of his own glorious body" (Philippians 1:23-24, 3:20-21).

    "They lived in tents while he looked forward to a city founded, designed, and built by God....All these died in faith, before receiving any of the things that had been promised, but they saw them in the far distance and welcomed them, recognizing that they were only strangers and nomads on the earth. People who use such terms about themselves make it quite plain that they are in search of their real homeland. They can hardly have meant the country they came from, since they had the opportunity to go back to it; but in fact they were longing for a better homeland, their heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, since he founded the city for them....But what you have come to is Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem where the millions of angels have gathered for the festival, with the whole church in which everyone is a firstborn son and a citizen of heaven" (Hebrews 11:10, 13-16).

    "He has kept them down in the dark, in spiritual chains, to be judged on the great day. The fornication of Sodom and Gomorrah and other nearby towns was equally unnatural, and it is a warning to us that they are paying for their crimes in eternal fire...It was with them in mind that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, made his prophecy [quoted from 1 Enoch 1:9] when he said, "Behold, the Lord has come with the myriads of his holy ones, to pronounce judgment on all mankind and to sentence the wicked for all the wicked things they have done, and for all the defiant things said against him by irreligious sinners' " (Jude 6-7, 14-15).

    "I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of his throne, while the book of life was opened, and other books opened which were the record of what they had done in their lives, by which the dead were judged. The sea gave up all the dead who were in it; Death and Hades were emptied of the dead that were in them, and everyone was judged according to the way in which he had lived ... and anyone whose name would not be found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:12-15).

    "The soul loves the flesh which hates it, and the limbs; and Christians love those who hate them. The soul has been shut up in the body, but itself sustains the body; and Christians, shut up in the world as a prison, themselves sustain the world. The soul is immortal, and lives within a mortal tent; and Christians live for the moment among corruptible things, while they await the incorruptibility in heaven" (Epistle of Diognetus, 6:6-8).

    "When this age reaches its full end, [God] will sit as judge, and his worshippers he will repay with life eternal, and the profane he will condemn to fire as perpetual and unceasing; for the dead, every man of them from the beginning, shall be raised, refashioned and reviewed, that their deserts of either kind, good or evil, may be adjudged" (Tertullian, Apology 18.3f).

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit