The Angels and Us - God's Creations

by waiting 7 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  waiting

  Back to the ol' Adam and Eve idea. Were they, then us, being tested, to make us perfect through our testing? Thus, proving we love God through our obedience - passing the horrendous tests put upon us.

  Where is it shown that God's higher creation, the angels, were tested? Is it because they were made perfect? They had not proved their love nor their obedience. They sinned - perfectly - as shown by Satan.

  Where is a record of their thousands of years of pain and suffering and death necessary to show their love for God? They can have pain. They can have suffering and they can experience destruction. And they have proven they can disobey and sin - just like us. In fact, Satan sinned before Eve.

  Instead of God testing, or allowing us to be tested, for the sake of the angels, why were the angels never tested to help us - the lower creation? Surely we could learn more from them than they could learn from us. Their intelligence and higher power, postion, etc., is held out to us as an example. We are told they are a "higher creation." What happened to the concept of learning from your older brother or sister? Why were A&E, the naive, "new" creation put to the test instead of those who had more experience?

  Why were we used as the pawns? Perhaps it's not love and obedience that's to be shown. Perhaps it's our expendability and lack of position compared to angels.

  To illustrate: A pet owner has a cat and a dog (classes). He loves the dog, he likes the cat. The dog needs to be shown a lesson about obeying and staying in his own backyard. Let the cat cross road and be killed in view of the dog. If the cat has kittens, perhaps they'll learn not to cross the road and live, perhaps not. But it's a good example to the dog what will happen if he doesn't obey the owner. Pain and death. Of course, the cat is given freedom of choice.
  And knowing cats, the chances of them obeying, as compared to obedient dogs, is slim.

  Tough lesson on the cat, but the dog might get the message.

  I believe this illustration is comparable to the chessgame illustration used by the WTBTS for years. We are the pawns in God's chessgame against Satan. Highly expendable.

  waiting
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  Frenchy

  I believe this illustration is comparable to the chessgame illustration used by the WTBTS for years. We are the pawns in God's chessgame against Satan. Highly expendable.

  I have outgrown that simplistic approach to the Garden of Eden scenario. We have before us, two roads, two ways to go on this matter as I see it. One can be summarized as you illustrated here, waiting. I am moved to ask that if this be the case why would God have bothered recording that incident at all? Your theory puts material creation on a dead end road. Why would even a semblance of hope be offered if that were the case?
  The other road is one that we are trying very hard to discover. This is the road of hope. Personally I would prefer spending the rest of my life pursuing this elusive hope rather than resign myself to the possibility of there being nothing else. Since there is no way of knowing for sure, why not look for hope?
  You are a survivor and you did not accomplish this by resignation. I think that way down deep inside that you too are looking for a reason to hope. I believe that the hell that you went through has given you strength of which even you yourself are not aware of as yet. I believe that incredible strength bought at such great price will serve you yet. Don’t give up.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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  Pathofthorns

  What a beautiful reply, Frenchy.

  Personally I would prefer spending the rest of my life pursuing this elusive hope rather than resign myself to the possibility of there being nothing else. Since there is no way of knowing for sure, why not look for hope?

  My thoughts as well.

  Path
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  waiting

  Hey Frenchy,

  I have outgrown that simplistic approach to the Garden of Eden scenario.

  That is, to my understanding, the WTBTS's understanding - we are pawns in a chessgame between Satan and God. Being a dub, I've not formulated higher reasoning on my own for 30 years.

  I am moved to ask that if this be the case why would God have bothered recording that incident at all?

  If the WTBTS's reasoning, and the obvious reason, for this account are not accurate, or deep, whose to say that God put this account in the Bible? Maybe it is just a story - with no overt meaning.

  Your theory puts material creation on a dead end road. Why would even a semblance of hope be offered if that were the case?

  Never said I was without hope. Said between angels and men - lower men were the class used to prove some creation could maintain obedience (love) for God - the higher angels were not put under any recorded test at all.

  I said that an angel, Satan, was the first recorded sinner. But they're not under recorded test themselves. Job was tested for obedience by Satan, with God's permission, to show the angels that a human could remain faithful to God. Women are to wear headcoverings (in prayer and conducting service arrangements) to show submission for the benefit of angels.

  My post was not about hope - or lack thereof.
  My question was about why God would put a new, and "made a little lower than angels" creation under test to show obedience for the benefit of the angels. Why would He not test the angels themselves to show their obedience? After all, they were the ones who first disobeyed, not humans. The Angels deceived the humans into disobedience and sin. Perhaps the humans would not have sinned if the angels had proved faithful first?

  Simplistic? Perhaps. "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for; the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." Heb. 11:1 If we don't question and try to understand our hope - how can we have faith?

  Personally I would prefer spending the rest of my life pursuing this elusive hope...

  Recognizing where one is on the scale of creation is not without faith, not stopping the pursuit of an elusive hope - it is recognizing a station in life.
  
  I have always found it remarkable that men have a hard time recognizing a "second class" station in life. Any woman raised, or being in the truth, will tell you that is a recognization that has to be made - men and the Society will make a woman recognize her station in life - lower than any baptized male - who are lower than than any angel.

  I recognize my station in creation - my question was why God chose to test us instead of the angels? Perhaps if He had tested the angels - his lower creation would have learned from the recorded test and not sinned. "All things were written as a example for us..." After all, they were the first sinners - not Adam and Eve.

  . I think that way down deep inside that you too are looking for a reason to hope.

  I think we're all looking for a reason to hope - but not blindly, or simplistically. That would seem to be one of the reasons we became Jehovah's Witnesses - a simplistic, reachable, reasonable, hope. And we found out it just ain't so.

  I'd like to figure some things out if possible. If not - try to make a semi-intelligent choice.

  I always enjoy batting ideas around with you. Thanks.

  waiting

  Edited by - waiting on 30 August 2000 8:23:47
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  Frenchy

  …whose to say that God put this account in the Bible? Maybe it is just a story - with no overt meaning.

  Certainly a possibility but if that is the case then there is no point in even talking about it. On the other hand if the account is there by God’s will then it has relevance.

  Never said I was without hope.

  I’m happy to hear that.

  Job was tested for obedience by Satan, with God's permission, to show the angels that a human could remain faithful to God.

  That is WTS doctrine and not necessarily the case. I think your sentence would work better without the phrase ‘to show the angels’. Notice I said ‘better’ because I do not believe that was the intent of the whole Job thing. To relegate mankind to merely an object lesson for angels appears to me to demean what we are told is a creation that is in the image of God. I have a problem understanding how God could allow such misery to befall a man (or woman) just to prove a point to someone that has already demonstrated a rebellious attitude, someone he apparently doesn’t even like! There has to be much more to this.
  There are many things which give cause for thought. As you rightly pointed out, it was an angel that was first to sin and yet that angel was not destroyed, his human victims were. As pointed out on another thread, David and Bath-Sheeba sinned and it was their baby that was executed. David takes a census and thousands of innocent people are executed as a result. The plague in Egypt killed the firstborn of ALL the Egyptians, none of whom had anything to do with what Pharoah decreed. Even the dumb animals died as a result of the plague. Somehow all of these things are consistent with a God of love. How? I don’t know.

  My question was about why God would put a new, and "made a little lower than angels" creation under test to show obedience for the benefit of the angels.

  My thought on the matter is that God DID NOT do this for the sake of the angels. They are probably involved in this somehow but I don’t believe its strictly for their benefit. Their existence has been intertwined with ours for a long time apparently. First in Eden then when they started messing with the women and then appearances to people down through the ages.

  I have always found it remarkable that men have a hard time recognizing a "second class" station in life.

  Very true. What men fail to recognize is that what the creator of woman put into her were qualities that He (God) possessed. Perhaps one day we will attain to another stage of development in which all of our qualities, male and female, will be balanced out and then we will feel complete.

  I think we're all looking for a reason to hope - but not blindly, or simplistically. That would seem to be one of the reasons we became Jehovah's Witnesses - a simplistic, reachable, reasonable, hope. And we found out it just ain't so.

  Agreed.
  

  I always enjoy batting ideas around with you.

  Likewise!

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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  waiting

  Hey Frenchy,

  Well, I can't bat much after that nice post, now can I?????

  waiting
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  Frenchy

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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  waiting

  Hey y'all,

  Well, still can't argue with Frenchy - but been to H2o and others have similar unanswerable questions about Adam and Eve etc.

  [url= http://www.cyberpass.net/~h2o/wwwboard/messages/277421.html]Adam's 25 Years of Solitude[/url]

  Thirdson, AF, Milky & others ask some off-the-wall questions I haven't even thought of yet!!

  Go figure.

  waiting, slow to the draw.......