Was Isaiah really sawn in half?

by truthseeker 5 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    I have been thinking to myself lately, why would a loving God, who protects his servants, allow the prophet Isaish to be sawn in half? What possible reason could this serve?

    Leolaia, I'd appreciate your thoughts on this question, and the info below.

    Searches turned up some interesting info...

    http://www.bible.ca/sola-scriptura-pro-tradition-sawn-in-two-hebrews-11-37.htm

    Extra-Biblical Oral Tradition Arguments Refuted:

    "Jews being sawn in two in Hebrews 11:37 came from tradition not scripture."

    False arguments that Catholics and Orthodox use to prove oral extra-scriptural church tradition are refuted.

    Sola Scriptura home page

    More Pro-Oral Church tradition arguments refuted!

    "Jews being sawn in two in Hebrews 11:37 came from tradition not scripture."

    "They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated." Hebrews 11:37
    "the author of Hebrews relies on the oral tradition of the martyrs being sawed in two. This is not recorded in the Old Testament. It was recorded in "The Ascension of Isaiah".
    "And many in Jerusalem and in Judea he will cause to abandon the true faith, and Beliar will dwell in Manasseh, and by his hands I shall be sawn asunder." (The Ascension of Isaiah 1:9)
    "And when Isaiah was being sawn in sunder, Belchira stood up, accusing him, and all the false prophets stood up, laughing and rejoicing because of Isaiah." (The Ascension of Isaiah 5:2)
    "And when Isaiah was being sawn in sunder, he neither cried aloud nor wept, but his lips spake with the Holy Spirit until he was sawn in twain." (The Ascension of Isaiah 5:14)

    Refutation of the false Catholic & Orthodox tradition argument:

    "Jews being sawn in two in Hebrews 11:37 came from tradition not scripture."

    Introduction:

    1. The Hebrew writer got the story directly from the Holy Spirit. Inspiration means that the prophecy did not come by an act of human will. We are offended that anyone would suggest the authors of the Bible rely upon human records and not the Holy Spirit. "no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. (2 Pet 1:20-21)
    2. Interesting that we have a reference to King David killing his enemies by sawing them in two: "He also brought out the people who were in it, and set them under saws, sharp iron instruments, and iron axes, and made them pass through the brickkiln. And thus he did to all the cities of the sons of Ammon. Then David and all the people returned to Jerusalem." 2 Samuel 12:31
    3. There is no known tradition or writing in existence that pre-dates the New Testament that says Isaiah was sawn in two.
    4. The Ascension of Isaiah was composed well after the New Testament was written. There are many examples of New Testament doctrines and ideas throughout the book.
    5. The Ascension of Isaiah is not oral tradition, but a written tradition.
    6. Roman Catholic and Orthodox defenders should be spanked for even suggesting that Hebrews 11:37 borrowed from "The Ascension of Isaiah".
    7. We want to draw the readers attention to the fact that Hebrews 11:37 does not name who it was who was sawn in two. Such information came as new revelation directly from the Holy Spirit!
    8. Even if there was an actual oral tradition about Isaiah being sawn in two, only through the Holy Spirit stating such in the scriptures, could modern traditionalists know which parts of the tradition are valid and which parts are fables.

      9. The Ascension of Isaiah written by Christians after 150 AD:

      We call this the "Which came first Hebrews 11:37 or The Ascension of Isaiah argument. The Ascension of Isaiah was so clearly composed and edited by Christians after Hebrews 11:37 was written that only the blind and self deluded would even consider suggesting that Hebrews 11:37 used the Ascension of Isaiah as the source of information that Isaiah was sawn in two.

      Notice the following quotes from the Ascension of Isaiah and prove to yourself it is worthless as oral tradition that pre-dates the New Testament:

      1. Crucifixion and the twelve apostles
        2. : "the children of Israel should torture Him, and the coming of His twelve disciples, and the teaching, and that He should before the sabbath be crucified upon the tree, and should be crucified together with wicked men, and that He should be buried in the sepulchre" (The Ascension of Isaiah 3:13)
      2. An obvious reference to Nero as the Anti-Christ
        3. : "After it is consummated, Beliar the great ruler, the king of this world, will descend, who hath ruled it since it came into being; yea, he will descent from his firmament in the likeness of a man, a lawless king, the slayer of his mother: who himself (even) this king. Will persecute the plant which the Twelve Apostles of the Beloved have planted. Of the Twelve one will be delivered into his hands. This ruler in the form of that king will come and there will come and there will come with him all the powers of this world, and they will hearken unto him in all that he desires. And at his word the sun will rise at night and he will make the moon to appear at the sixth hour. And all that he hath desired he will do in the world: he will do and speak like the Beloved and he will say: "I am God and before me there has been none."" (The Ascension of Isaiah 4:2-6)
      3. Trinity
        4. : "And I saw when He ascended into the sixth heaven, and they worshipped and glorified Him. But in all the heavens the praise increased (in volume). And I saw how He ascended into the seventh heaven, and all the righteous and all the angels praised Him. And then I saw Him sit down on the right hand of that Great Glory whose glory I told you that I could not behold. And also the angel of the Holy Spirit I saw sitting on the left hand." (The Ascension of Isaiah 11:30-32)
      4. Isaiah speaking by the Holy Spirit is clearly a New Testament theology and look, it is at the very time Isaiah was sawn in two:
        5.  "And when Isaiah was being sawn in sunder, he neither cried aloud nor wept, but his lips spake with the Holy Spirit until he was sawn in twain." (The Ascension of Isaiah 5:14)

      More Pro-Oral Church tradition arguments refuted!

      More Anti-Sola Scriptura arguments refuted!

      by Steve Rudd

      Go To Start: WWW.BIBLE.CA

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Well, I was just about to post a lengthy response and seconds before I was able to press "send", my boyfriend pulled the circuit breaker and the whole post was lost. So sorry, I'm not going to rewrite the whole @#&$% thing, especially since I have to get up at 4am to take an early morning flight.

    I'll just say the article you posted failed to make its case. Two basic facts it ignored: (1) the existence of the same tradition in the first-century Vitae Prophetarum and in Justin Martyr (early-to-mid second century), as well in later rabbinical tradition, and (2) the fact that the Ascension of Isaiah is a composite work, and the passages the article cites are obvious Christian interpolations into an earlier Jewish pseudepigraphon (the Martyrdom of Isaiah). The Vision of Isaiah (ch. 6-11), for instance, circulated independently as a seperate work and was only combined with the Martyrdom of Isaiah because they concern the same prophet; they otherwise have nothing to do with each other, and don't even follow each other in chronological order. And since the interpolation of 3:13-4:22 (which very abruptly interrupts the narrative) dates to the late first century or early second century, the work into which it was inserted must be older and most scholars date the original version of the Martyrdom of Isaiah to the first century AD. We thus have four separate works attesting the same tradition in the first century and first half of the second century; this, and the later rabbinical tradition, is more than enough to show the existence of an oral tradition represented in different ways in different compositions. It is also impossible that the very vague allusion in Hebrews, a patently Christian work, is the source of a tradition in different (and probably roughly contemporaneous) Jewish sources.

  • the_classicist
    the_classicist

    Personally, I've never seen the above arguement about Hebrews being made by any Catholics or Orthodox.

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    Leolaia, thanks for responding. Interesting comments.

    Sometimes, when I used my laptop, I forget to turn on the battery charger then I loose all my work. :(

    Truthseeker

  • Crumpet
    Crumpet

    What is interesting to me is that God's favoured one - King David - committed horrible acts of torture, yet another reason for me to despise the God of the bible that condoned the same kind of evil inhumane violence that JWs are quick to accuse other religions of.

  • Sith
    Sith

    What form of execution is more heinous than the ancient Israelite practice of "stoning"? Standing there while people throw rocks at you until you are dead. You standing there, throwing rocks at another human being, until he/she is dead. How monstrous is that? By comparison, getting sawed in half doesn't sound so bad. Probably a relatively quick death. I agree with Crumpet. "God is love". Bullsh*t!

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