Noah and the Flood (more questions then answers)

by Big Jim 5 Replies latest jw friends

  • Big Jim
    Big Jim

    Noah's Ark

    Noah's Ark is the boat built by the Biblical character Noah. At the command of his God, according to the story, Noah was to build a boat that could accommodate his extended family, about 50,000 species of animals and about one million species of insects. The craft had to be constructed to endure a divinely planned universal flood aimed at destroying every other person and animal on earth (except, I suppose, those animals whose habitat is liquid). This was no problem, according to Dr. Max D. Younce, who says by his calculations from Genesis 6:15 that the ark was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet deep. He says this is equivalent to "522 standard stock cars or 8 freight trains of 65 cars each." By some divine calculation he figures that all the insect species and the worms could fit in 21 box cars. He could be right, though Dr. Younce does not address the issue of how the big boxcar filled with its cargo rose with the rainwater level instead of staying put beneath the floodwaters.

    Those not familiar with the story might wonder why God would destroy nearly all the descendants of all of the creatures he had created. The story is that God was displeased with all of his human creations, except for Noah and his family. Annihilating those one is displeased with has become a familiar tactic of the followers of this and many other gods.

    Despite the bad example God set for Noah's descendants--imagine a human parent drowning his or her children because they were "not righteous"--the story remains a favorite among children. God likes good people. He lets them ride on a boat with a bunch of friendly animals. He shows them a great rainbow after the storm. And they all live happily ever after. Even adults like the story, though they might see it as an allegory with some sort of spiritual message, such as God is all-powerful and we owe everything, even our very existence to the Creator. Furthermore, the Creator expects us to behave ourselves. But there are some who take the story literally.

    According to the story told in chapter 7 of Genesis, Noah, his crew and the animals lived together for more than 6 months before the floodwaters receded. There are a few minor logistical problems with this arrangement, but before getting to them, there is one other thing that needs commenting on. I think it is obvious that floods are no laughing matter. The destruction of life and property caused by floods has plagued many animals, not just humans, from time immemorial. To watch one's family or home swept away in floodwaters must be a terrible spectacle. To see one's children drown, one's life and dreams washed away in an instant, must be a devastating experience. But if one were to discover that the flood was not a whimsical effect of chance natural events, not unplanned and purposeless, but rather the malicious and willful act of a conscious being, one might add rage to the feelings of devastation. I suppose one could argue that it is God's world; he created it, so he can destroy it if he feels like it. But such an attitude seems inappropriate for an All-Good, Loving God.

    the "finding" of the Ark

    Yet, as preposterous as this story seems, there are people in the twentieth century who claim they have found Noah's ark. Yes, they say that when the flood receded, Noah and his zoo were perched upon the top of Mt. Ararat in Turkey. Presumably, at that time, all the animals dispersed to the far recesses of the earth. How the animals got to the different continents, we are not told. Perhaps they floated there on debris. More problematic, I think is how so many species survived when they had been reduced to just one pair or seven pairs of creatures. Also, you would think that the successful species which had the furthest to travel, would have left a trail of offspring along the way. What evidence is there that all species originated in Turkey? That's what the record should look like if the ark landed on Mt. Ararat.

    Still, none of this deters the true believer from maintaining that the story of Noah's ark is the God's truth. Nor does it deter those who think the ark has been found. For example, in 1977 a pseudo-documentary called "In Search of Noah's Ark" was played on numerous television stations and CBS showed a special in 1993 entitled, "The Incredible Discovery of Noah's Ark." The first is a work of fiction claiming to be a documentary. The second was masterminded by George Jammal, who has admitted that the story was a hoax. Jammal said he wanted to expose religious frauds. His hoax was seen by about 20 million people, most of whom probably still do not know that Jammal did not want them to take it seriously.

    During his show, Jammal produced what he called "sacred wood" from the ark, which he later admitted was wood taken from railroad tracks in Long Beach, California, which he had hardened by cooking in an oven. He also prepared other fake wood by frying a piece of California pine on his kitchen stove in a mix of wine, iodine, sweet-and-sour and teriyaki sauces. He also admitted that he had never been to Turkey. The program was produced by Sun International Pictures, based in Salt Lake City, and responsible for several pseudo-documentaries on Nostradamus, the Bermuda Triangle, the Shroud of Turin, and UFOs.

    the evidence for a universal flood

    Stories of floods are not unique to the ancient Jews.* What geological or archaeological evidence is there of such a universal destruction of all human societies, all plants and all animals except for the ones on Noah's boat (or Ziusudra's [Sumeria], or Utnapishtim's [Babylon])? There should be a layer of sediment dating from the same time which contains all the bones of these poor creatures. There should be evidence that all human societies were wiped out simultaneously. No such evidence exists of a universal flood. Evidence of a great flood, perhaps caused by melting glaciers some 7,000 years ago, has been discovered off the coast of Turkey by Robert Ballard (who found the remains of the Titanic) and some have claimed this is evidence of Noah's flood, but this is pure and inane speculation.* As archeological anthropologist John Alden notes

    ...the story in the Bible is clear -- it rained for weeks before Noah's flood, and after it stopped raining the floodwaters receded. The Black Sea flood wasn't caused by rain, and after the water rose it never went away. And neither [the Sumerian nor the Biblical] story mentions the most dramatic consequence of the Black Sea flood, which turned fresh water into salt. Noah's flood, in short, doesn't sound anything like the inundation of the Black Sea (Alden).

    However, for the sake of argument, let's agree that there was a universal flood, but that somehow the evidence got twisted around so that geologically and archaeologically it doesn't appear that the flood occurred. There are still a few questions we should ask before accepting this theory. First, how big was this boat? The answer: really, really big! Would it float? Noah might have been given divine guidance here, so maybe this boat, bigger than any supertanker we've ever seen, could float. Remember that this is all done before the discovery of metallurgy, so the boat is made of wood and other natural materials. How many forests would it take to provide the lumber for such a boat? How many people working how many years would be required? Building a pyramid would be peanuts compared to building the ark. But remember, people lived a lot longer in those days. Noah was 600 years old when the project started. He must have been about 1,200 years old when it was finished. Think of the reputation he must have gained over those hundreds of years building a giant boat in the desert.

    But let's say that, however implausible, such a boat could have been built using the technology of wooden-boat building known to the earliest peoples. After all, Noah allegedly had God's help in building his boat. There is still the problem of gathering the animals together from the various parts of the world that, as far as we know, Noah had no idea even existed. How did he get to the remote regions of the earth to collect exotic butterflies and Komoda dragons? How did he get all those species of dinosaurs to follow him home? (Fundamentalists believe dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time.) By the time he collected all his species, in twos and sevens, his boat would probably have rotted in the desert sun.

    But let's grant that Noah was able to collect all the birds and mammals, reptiles and amphibians, and a couple of million insects, that he is said to have gathered together on his boat. There is still the problem of keeping the animals from eating one another. Or, are we to believe that the lion was lying down with the lamb on the ark? Did the carnivores become vegetarians for the duration of the flood? How did he keep the birds from eating the insects? Perhaps, the ark was stocked with foods for all the animals. After all, if Noah could engineer the building of a boat which could hold all those animals, it would have been a small feat to add room to store enough food to last for more than six months. Of course, Noah would have to store enough food for himself and his family, too. But these would have been minor details to such a man with such a plan guided by his God.

    Still, it seems difficult to imagine how such a small crew could feed all these animals in a single day. There is just Noah, his wife, their three sons and three daughters-in-law. The "daily" rounds would take years, it seems. Delicacy forbids me from mentioning the problems of the "clean-up" detail, but I would have to say that if the noise of all those animals didn't drive Noah insane (not to mention the insect bites), the smell should have killed him. At least they didn't have to worry about water to drink. God provided water in abundance.

  • Jools j
    Jools j

    i enjoyed that. would you consider doing a debunking of the Tower of Babel too, please? i've never gotten to the nitty gritty of that.
    yours in anticipation, jools

  • larc
    larc

    Big Jim,

    On another thread about "real truth", Jason set out to prove the Ark theory. I showed the impossibility of the space demands even with his lower number of generic animals of 16,000. RHW showed the impossibility of the feed requirements. I further showed the severe problems in harvesting and transporting all the food. The day to day feeding and removing of manure is also poblematic. I calculated that with 16,000 animals and 8 people working 16 hours a day that they would only have 30 seconds per animal. Jason said he was going to do some more research and get back with us.

    By the way, I believe they were on the ARK for 11 months, not 6, which makes it even more difficult to explain.

  • Silverleaf
    Silverleaf

    Hi Big Jim,

    These posts are great! I'd love to read more if you've got them. I've been lurking for a while and finally decided to post, I love the discussions here!

    Silverleaf

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Big Jim: Excellent development on this topic. On H20 I posted a 6 Part Flood Series that totally debunked the flood. I suppose it may be good to repost it here. The gist of my posted series is this:

    A global flood could not possibly have happened for these reasons.

    1. Geologocal evidence proves otherwise.
    2. Atmosphere could never hold even half the water needed.
    3. Below surface wells could never accomodate water run off.
    4. The hydronamics from flooding would have destroyed the ark.
    5. Polar caps would not freeze until flood was over. Thus, no instant trapping of elephants still eating in Siberia.
    6. Ark was poorly designed for floating with that much load.
    7. Ark had no keel to prevent capsizing.
    8. Ark had no steerage. (Needed to keep from hitting mountains)
    9. Logistics of storing enough food for a year is not feasible.
    10. Logistics of clean up would be too much for 8 people.
    11. No food available after flood, all life destroyed. Heavy flooding, wave motion, enourmous water pressure, and post flood run off would have totally demolished the surface of the planet.
    12. Fresh water fish and salt water fish would be dead too. No food.
    13. Salt content would kill fresh water fish. Diluted salt content from flood would kill salt water species.
    14. Some animal species got to continients like Austrailia, but are not found elsewhere.

    These are just some of the issues disproving a global flood. For such a flood to have happened, God would have to wave many magic hands, violate his own perfect laws of physics, then change, hide, cover, and altar all the evidence that a flood happened so as to deceive us today, then recreate most sea species, and most gound vegitation. A lot of work for God for one little Bible story. Let me know and I will post my series here on JWD. - Amazing

  • RedhorseWoman
    RedhorseWoman

    I still can't believe that I used to once believe this whole thing in toto.

    Jason kept referring to Woodmorappe's book, which purportedly "proves" that the Ark existed and which purportedly answers all of the objections that have been raised on these various points. I have only read excerpts from this book in the past, but now I've ordered it from Amazon. I don't know how how it will take to get it, since it's on special order, but I have to read these so-called "proofs" for myself.

    As Larc mentioned, Jason quoted Woodmorappe as stating that there would need to be only around 16,000 animals on the Ark, since there would need to be only two of every "kind" of animal, rather than two of every "species".

    I touched on this a little in that previous thread, but since then I've given it more thought. Having only two of every "kind" would almost certainly guarantee extinction for the animals.

    Any sort of injury or disease could render the pair unable to reproduce. Obviously, death of one of the pair would mean extinction for the "kind" of animal.....meaning no felines, or canines, or equines, etc. of ANY sort....ever.

    Also, the lack of diversity of the gene pool with only two breeding members would almost certainly result in eventual extinction. Today, many captive breeding programs of endangered species have failed due to the lack of genetic diversity.

    The only way to guarantee that the various "kinds" of animals would survive and prosper would be to have multiple species that could interbreed and diversify.

    So....we're back to the question of how could all of those animals, plus food, plus bedding, etc. fit on the Ark in the first place.

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