What if the ?other sheep? of John 10:16 actually are the gentile believers that came to Christ following His resurrection?
What would this mean for the Watchtower Organization, since so much is riding on their interpretation of this passage? Are the ?other sheep? of John 10:16 the Gentiles?
It would mean that there are not 2 classes of Christian, one with a different hope than the other, but that the hope laid out in the NT for Christians is one that all those who have faith in Christ can hope for.
It would mean that all Christians have the hope that the NT offers to all who have faith in Christ, that is, heaven.
It means that the resurrection hope that Paul talks of at 1 Corinthians 15 is the true and only biblical hope, and that there is not in fact another one that was not spoken of in the Bible, but mysteriously known to the WT. All Christians will have a glorious powerful, spiritual, incorruptible, immortal body as Paul states.
Christians can read the bible without wondering if that was written to and for them, or to another group of Christians.
It would mean that the NT was written to all Christians down through the ages, not just 144,000.
It would mean that nothing biblical happened in 1935, when the Witnesses say that the main calling for the 144,000 came to its end.
That there is no difference between those who claim to be of the little flock and the other sheep, other than one was a Jew and one was a Gentile, but now they are both ?one flock? being lead by Christ, the one Shepard of the sheep.
It would mean that Christ is, after all, the mediator between God and man, not God and a few select, or 144,000, men.
It would mean that the WT can add this to the list of theological errors that they have taught, all the while claiming to be divinely appointed by Christ, and to be ?God?s sole means of communication.?
It would mean that each year the Witnesses all get together and symbolically reject the Blood and Body of Christ by their not obeying His words to partake of the emblems.
It would mean that all Christians should and must eat of the loafs and drink the wine at the memorial celebration, or else they would ?have no life? in themselves.
16 ?And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd. 17 This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my soul, in order that I may receive it again.? 18
Thus you have two folds of sheep, but Christ Himself would bring them together by His death, and the two folds would become ?one flock.? Christ also says of the ?other sheep? that he would also ?bring? these with Him. Since Jesus says in John 14:2-4 that there were many abodes in heaven, and he would also come again and receive them, it is logical to say that just as he was planning to bring Israel with him to His Fathers house, so to he would open the way for the gentiles to be with him.
The two groups seen in the bible are always the Israelites and the gentiles, Jew and non-Jew. That is how the biblical language separates people, and I believe that the only biblical separation possible with John 10:16 and the 2 folds who, under the leadership and death of the one Shepard, Jesus, become one again, is the biblical distinction between the Jews and gentiles. Indeed, that biblical distinction between Jews and the gentiles (or Greeks) is presented and expounded upon all through the NT. Note, for example, the following examples, of the distinction between these two groups.
(John 14:2-4 )
2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be. 4 And where I am going YOU know the way.?
(Acts 10:34-36)
?For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him. 36 He sent out the word to the sons of Israel to declare to them the good news of peace through Jesus Christ: this One is Lord of all [others].
(Acts 15:7-9)
: ?Men, brothers, YOU well know that from early days God made the choice among YOU that through my mouth people of the nations should hear the word of the good news and believe; 8 and God, who knows the heart, bore witness by giving them the holy spirit, just as he did to us also. 9 And he made no distinction at all between us and them, but purified their hearts by faith.
(Romans 10:11-13)
? 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for there is the same Lord over all, who is rich to all those calling upon him. 1
(Romans 11:24) For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much rather will these who are natural be grafted into their own olive tree!
(1 Corinthians 12:13)
13 For truly by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit.
(Galatians 3:26-29)
26 YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham?s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.
(Colossians 3:11)
where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scyth´i·an, slave, freeman, but Christ is all things and in all.
Perhaps the most powerfully and remarkably parallels Christ words at John 10:16 are found in Ephesians 2:11-18.
*** Rbi8 Ephesians 2:11-18 ***
11 Therefore keep bearing in mind that formerly YOU were people of the nations as to flesh; ?uncircumcision? YOU were called by that which is called ?circumcision? made in the flesh with hands? 12 that YOU were at that particular time without Christ, alienated from the state of Israel and strangers to the covenants of the promise, and YOU had no hope and were without God in the world. 13 But now in union with Christ Jesus YOU who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. 14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; 16 and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself. 17 And he came and declared the good news of peace to YOU, the ones far off, and peace to those near, 18 because through him we, both peoples, have the approach to the Father by one spirit.
Right here in the text, Paul, using a different analogy than Christ used, creates the same picture, showing that the apostles and disciples understood Christ illustration of the 2 groups to be that of the Jews and gentiles. All the same elements are presented. In Ephesians 2 you have two groups of people who are separated by the wall, which Christ by his death abolishes, uniting the two peoples into one, all in union with Jesus Christ, the head.
John 10- Two fold of Sheep
Eph 2- Two peoples
John 10- Other sheep hear Christ voice
Eph 2- Gentiles hear the gospel message
John 10- Christ death brings together into one Flock
Eph 2- Christ death brings together into unity with Himself
John 10- both sheep fold become one flock
Eph 2 ? Both parties made one
John 10- Both folds to be lead by Christ
Eph 2- Both Jews and gentiles lead by Christ
Thus, when you allow the bible to interpret itself, you come to a clear and scriptural understanding of who the ?other sheep? of John 10:16 are. They are, as Christians have long understood, the gentile believers who have faith in Christ and by His death are sanctified and lead to the Father. The Watchtower has misapplied this verse and added post biblical theology to fit their 2 class system of Chirstians, making the bible a book that, like the Catholics have falsely taught, is not a book for all men, but only for a privileged few. They have made Christ the mediator, not for mankind, but only for a select few, and the marvelous hope that the bible gives to all Christians, they have again, said that that hope is not really available for all mankind. By the unscriptural interpretation that they have placed on the ?other sheep? of John 10:16, the Watchtower religion has taken away many truths in the bible, and have had to add lie upon lie to sustain their interpretation. How much better it is to allow the bible to speak and interpret itself, then have to create the post-biblical distinctions that the Witnesses are currently teaching.
Free in Christ
Daniel Michaels
[email protected]
Interestingly, although the WT identifies the 144,000 of Revelation 7 as the ?little flock? in Luke 12, the ?other sheep? in John 10 are also said to become intergraded into the ?one flock.? Thus, since both folds of sheep are to become ?one flock? and Christ states that the ?little flock? is to be given the kingdom, the ?other sheep? would also be among those who are given a kingdom that flesh and blood cannot inherit. Thus there is one God, one Faith, one Lord, and also, according to Christ, ?one flock.?
Robinsons Word Pictures
Joh 10:16 - Other sheep (alla probata). Sheep, not goats, but "not of this fold" (ek tês aulês tautês). See verse 1 for aulê. Clearly "his flock is not confined to those enclosed in the Jewish fold, whether in Palestine or elsewhere" (Westcott). Christ's horizon takes in all men of all races and times (Joh 11:52; 12:32). The world mission of Christ for all nations is no new idea with him (Mt 8:11; Lu 13:28). God loved the world and gave his Son for the race (John 3:16), Them also I must bring (kakeina dei me agagein). Second aorist active infinitive of agô with dei expressing the moral urgency of Christ's passion for God's people in all lands and ages. Missions in Christ's mind takes in the whole world. This is according to prophecy (Isa 42:6; 49:6; 56:8) for the Messiah is to be a Light also to the Gentiles. It was typified by the brazen serpent (Joh 3:14). Christ died for every man. The Pharisees doubtless listened in amazement and even the disciples with slow comprehension. And they shall hear my voice (kai tês phônês mou akousontai). Future middle indicative of akouô with the genitive phônês. These words read like a transcript from the Acts and the Epistles of Paul (Ro 9-11 in particular). See especially Paul's words in Ac 28:28. Present-day Christianity is here foretold. Only do we really listen to the voice of the Shepherd as we should? Jesus means that the Gentiles will hearken if the Jews turn away from him. And they shall become one flock, one shepherd (kai genêsontai mia poimnê, heis poimên). Future middle indicative of ginomai, plural, not singular genêsetai as some MSS. have it. All (Jews and Gentiles) will form one flock under one Shepherd. Note the distinction here by Jesus between poimnê (old word, contraction of poimenê from poimên, shepherd), as in Mt 26:31, and aulê (fold) just before. There may be many folds of the one flock. Jerome in his Vulgate confused this distinction, but he is wrong. His use of ovile for both aulê and pomnion has helped Roman Catholic assumptions. Christ's use of "flock" (poimnê) here is just another metaphor for kingdom (basileia) in Mt 8:11 where the children of the kingdom come from all climes and nations. See also the various metaphors in Eph 2 for this same idea. There is only the one Great Shepherd of the sheep (Heb 13:20), Jesus Christ our Lord.
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Note 3.
Some who have not read first hand the WT publication might not know that many JW?s don?t even have the Lord Jesus as their personal mediator. Note the following WT article.
*** ws chap. 1 pp. 10-11 The Desire for Peace and Security Worldwide ***
Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members.
What if the other sheep of John 10:16 are actually the Gentiles?
by Daniel Michaels 7 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Daniel Michaels
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ozziepost
What if the ?other sheep? of John 10:16 actually are the gentile believers that came to Christ following His resurrection?
They are.
In context, (something which the WTS doesn't think of doing), it's obvious.
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RR
Or, they could be those outside of the Church class of Jews an Gentiles. The world of mankind who will learn of Jehovah and his plan during the Kingdom reign. Whn all those in the graves will hear his voice and come forth.
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ozziepost
Blech!!!!!!!!
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XQsThaiPoes
Personally I beleave the watchtowers interpetation is correct. The popular concept of heaven and salavtion does not meet old world sensiblities. Considering Jesus was a jew that was part of the ressurectionist flavor it would seem to point out that who ever was left would come out of the tombs and ossuaries the jew were fond of at the time.
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toreador
Edited to add. I found the reference on my WTS cd-rom.
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JCanon
And...the actual meaning is, for the record:
Most of the prophetic parables of Jesus deal with the "temple organization", a visible organization that would come into it's "right condition" after 2300 evenings and mornings (Daniel), a reference to a specific organization or "fold" during the last days. That organization is Jehovah's witnesses. But as another parable points out, this particular organization would be oversewn by weeds by Satan in the early stages of the organization. Thus by 1914-1918 the weeds of Freemasonry-based Russell and Rutherford had infiltrated the organization at high levels and to remove them would destroy the organization. As the parable notes, in order that some already gathered, some tender wheat, not be lost, God would allow the wheat and weeds to grow together until the harvest. This single point is the key to understanding much regarding the "temple" organization of Jehovah's witnesses. That is, this organization would be a mixture of wheat and weeds and thus sheep and goats until the time of the harvest when Christ returns and then separates out the wheat from the weeds and the sheep from the goats.
But even though this organization had a special purpose as the temple organization, it was just one of many slaves sent forth "to do business". Thus we find in other parables, the organization that was mixed with wheat and weeds would have its leaders become apostate. The apostate leader was the appointed "slave" for this organization and thus when Christ returns and finds it wanting, he takes the coin away from this slave and gives it to the slave that produced ten-fold. And this is the reference for John 10:16 of this event. When Christ removes the sheep from the sheep-goat organization, which constitutes a "little flock" and gives it to a larger gathered slave organization of the master, the largest one, in fact. This larger organization of Christ is the larger body of "other sheep" with whom those who are saved out of the witness organization will be gathered to. And that's the true understanding of this reference.
Once Christ does remove this "little flock" of faithful ones from the witness organization, the goats and the apostate leaders of this organization are abandoned.
What other gathering of Christ? Good question. I won't go into detail unless requested, but basically there are several other Christian "flocks" that Christ is reaping anointed ones from. Christ gives two parables one where ten slaves were sent out and one where there are three slaves sent out. The 10-slave parable simply confirms there are an indefinite number of groups from which Christ will gather sheep. The 3-slave parable focusses on the most prominent two groups, one which had a 10-fold increase and another with 5-fold, half it's size. These two "secret organizations" make up the "two witnesses" that are directly involved with the messiah at the second coming mentioned in Revelation. All these groups make up the "woman" in Revelation who gives birth to the child that becomes the Messiah who has "her place in the wilderness" meaning she is a secret society which the Devil and his organizations cannot see directly. Thus the faithful "sheep" witnesses from the WTS are gathered into this large secret gathering of "other sheep." I loosely refer to the two classes as "Bible-based witnesses" versus "Watchtower-based witnesses". The Bible-based witnesses have the attitude of the "wise virgins" whereas the "Watchtower-based witnesses" have the attitude of the foolish virgins. The Watchtower-based witnesses are comparable to wheat-appearing weeds. They resemble wheat from a distance but don't survive close scrutinity when Christ arrives as true wheat. They are lazy and stubborn like goats and thus are rejected by Christ.
This gathering of the "little flock" from this organization into the larger "other sheep" organization has been going on since 1992 and is nearing it's final stages as we face events leading to the destruction of Illuminati-based Babylon the Great by the UN.
So now we know.
JC
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Carmel
WE? Please define! Knowing and surmising are two distinct phenomena.
carmel