Did Jesus actually start a church to himself? (page 3)

TTWSYF

Mephis- So in your mind, Jesus din't start a church to himself because in Mathew, he says he WILL build his church is in future tense, but Mathew is written 50 years later, iS THAT RIGHT?

Just want to be sure that I understand your position

Mephis

Mephis- So in your mind, Jesus din't start a church to himself because in Mathew, he says he WILL build his church is in future tense, but Mathew is written 50 years later, iS THAT RIGHT?
Just want to be sure that I understand your position

I'm pointing out that two uses of the term ekklesia in Matthew are not evidence for Jesus founding a church in his lifetime for that reason, yes. I've highlighted that even after Jesus is meant to have died and visited the apostles again, Acts 2 has the believers gathered together to celebrate a Jewish festival. There is no shared creed in Christianity for centuries. Early christianity is small communities of believers who have their own prophets and elect their own leaders and spend centuries arguing over who Jesus was, what he did, what it means etc etc. It's not just one reason, it's a whole host of them all pointing to the same thing.

TTWSYF

Mephis

Well,.. we are all entitled to our opinions, I am honestly trying to, but I just don't follow your logic. Being written in one gospel isn't good enough? Do you think that it must be written in other gospels to be legit? What about the all other passages that were not repeated in other gospels? I mean, the bible says Jesus did lots of other stuff that never made it to the gospels, right?

Also your point about Jesus building, or Jesus having HIS church built,or he will build as a way out of this explicit proof text is just a bunch of nonsense. Do you actually believe that? That Jesus did not intend to have HIS church.

There WAS a church [in the making] for hundreds of years before the bible, right? I believe that Jesus DID start a church and started building it on the apostles. The passage that refers to Peter as the rock that he will build his church on is the first corner of the foundation. A building needs a foundation to start. A church starts and is built as it goes along, like a building, no?

Mephis

Hey TTWSYF

I'm just asking for a basic standard of evidence. I'd accept that the writer of Matthew was claiming a church existed in Jesus' lifetime if he weren't using the future tense when describing it. One would think that establishing a church would be a major part of Jesus ministry no other gospel writer would have missed. Kind of like angels turning up to his birth, or when he was born, or when he died, or what happened when he died, and what happened when he came back... Actually...

Anyhow, Mark surely would have mentioned it (earliest canon gospel). You'd think the writer of John would. The writer of Luke claims he's a historian, surely it would have been of interest? The whole point he says he's writing a gospel is to cover bits other gospel writers (of which we know of a few dozen) haven't mentioned or have got wrong (Luke 1). It's a huge thing in Acts 2 (v.42 on) when he starts describing the 'fellowship'. In fact, that seems the closest thing to an origin story for christian churches...

Multiple sources better than single source. Multiple sources agreeing on basic facts better than mutiple sources disagreeing over them.

If Matthew uses future tense, then the claim that Jesus established a church in his lifetime can't be proven by that statement. That's basic reading comprehension. If we can't agree on something as simple as that, then we're obviously going to struggle to do more than talk past each other. We're both entitled to our opinions, but we do have to share the facts. :) I have absolutely no idea on Jesus' intentions, sorry. It would seem that even those who say they followed him round for years didn't either, as they seem to have been expecting him to return and smite the wicked and died without that happening.

So by saying to Peter he's a rock and something will happen in the future, a church is established by Jesus in his lifetime? Doesn't really work for me. I can see where you're coming from, but saying for the future isn't making it so in his lifetime.

SecretSlaveClass

Mephis:
The Essenes and the Dead Sea Scrolls?

It may be. Unfortunately I can't find it anywhere.

blondie

The Roman Catholic Church considers itself the one and only true church back to the Apostle Peter. But that is an offshoot of the church in Constantinople. First split?

lriddle80

I believe in Jesus. He changed my life. Before I only cared about myself and now I am capable of giving love and thinking of others. The holy spirit is constantly changing my perspective and understanding. God is in my life and when I see how he is working I am always so humbled that he cares for me, though it is written in the bible! All my eggs are in the basket of Jesus. Probably like how all jw eggs are in the gb basket. I trust my basket more.

Heartsafire

Im not certain if his intention was for a completely new religion or to merely change Judaism.

From what I gather Jesus is, at least, a historical figure that existed as a man. But, whatever you believe, if you choose to go by scripture, he appeared to be a Jewish "apostate" and introduced a new approach to worship that was based upon what we now call the Golden Rule rather than the legalism of the Jewish law.

HAF

blondie

Iriddle80, you realize, of course, that the vast majority of people on JWN no longer put the eggs in the gb basket.

TTWSYF

Mephis,

Yes, it is true that there were others who believed in Jesus, but did not follow the apostles per say.

Remember the texts that stated that others were casting out in Jesus's name, but did not follow the apostles ways. This does not mean that Jesus didn't start HIS church on the apostles. He commissioned the apostles to do ALL that he commanded. All other followers would not have the fullness of what Jesus taught. The bible came after the church. The bible was given to the world FROM the church.

There was a church in place by acts of the apostles. This is confirmed in the [1st] council of Jerusalem. Notice that James is the bishop of Jerusalem, but it is Peter who leads and controls the council. Jesus said to go and make disciples proclaiming the gospels to all the nations.

Ultimately, one must take everything into account. Is it possible that a man [or men] could decipher the scriptures better than the Church that gave them to the world? A church started by Christ himself? Perhaps that may be why you reason that Jesus didn't start a church in the face of explicit texts.

Did Jesus actually start a church to himself?

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