Dear Witnesses, just suppose....

by SixofNine 9 Replies latest jw friends

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Just suppose for a minute, that there is this guy. A nice guy. Has a really good record of trying to do the right thing. Most all his life, he believed the Bible, and that JW's had the correct understanding of the bible.

    He starts really asking himself some hard questions. He prays about it all. Often times in tears. Did I mention he was a nice guy? He is not finding satisfying answers. It's not that he doesn't want to find answers, he is not arrogant, he hasn't made up his mind against any good evidence, in fact, let's just say he is the meekest guy on the planet.

    To make a long story short, after all is said and done, he sees no reason to believe the bible came from God, or was even touched by God. In fact, he isn't sure he sees any evidence for Gods existance, save for the uncanny brilliance he thinks he sees in the natural world, and a few spooky stories riz tells.

    Now is this guy toast? Or what?

  • patio34
    patio34

    Six,

    HAVE YOU BEEN READING MY MIND? Except substitute 'gal' for guy! Or is there something going around?

    Actually, this was my condition about 3 months ago. But now I feel I'm on the road to recovery.

    That's what the religionists (read priests in the past) count on: your feeling that you'll be toast. That's what keep people in the religions.

    And, what will you be branded if you share your doubts with the 'faithful'?

    APOSTATE! That's the worst they can heap on you. And for what? Being a murderer? Pedophile? Adulterer? Drunkard? No, just not being able to intellectually believe it any more, because of the evidence against it. In other words, being intelligent.

    Good luck! Love being able to say that now!

    Pat

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    funny, I had been reading your post on the board, and been thinking, "she seems to be the 2nd meekest person on earth, next to me of course!"

    Yep, I just can't buy that God is going to whack someone simply because they don't believe in the unbelievable. Especially if logic is a gift from said God in the first place.

  • outnfree
    outnfree

    Six,

    This is the place that I'm at now. Despite my long answer to the unanswered prayers thread elsewhere.

    Right now I think I believe there's a God. I'm not sure I believe the Bible to be inspired, however. And if it is, I'm with Amazing that Christians have to be careful at looking at the OT to justify their hardhearted rules, because Christ's law supersedes all that legal stuff.

    So I'm in this Bible Study group and I'm having a VERY hard time because I know what the DESIRED answers are, the PREDICTABLE answers are, and there are some there who are just as narrow-minded as my former Witness cohorts.

    And I know I've moved beyond that pettiness, but I'm still not confident enough to spout my opinions in that setting because, well, because I'm a wimp, and since I haven't known these people very long, and because I stupidly worry about others' opinions of me, etc., I am only halfway stating my objections to the status quo. (But we're only on Lesson 2 of 12, so I might get more confident as we go. I hope.)

    I am one very confused, (and also meek ) prayerful person who simply wants to do and be good.

    I just think it will take some time for us to sort out.

    Be patient with yourself.
    outnfree

  • terraly
    terraly

    What's with this whole "converting people" anyway?

    See, it's like evolution. Only those religions which convert new members will survive, and sadly (very sadly in my opinion) it sometimes seems as if there's no reason to join a religion if it's not going to save your mortal soul or whatever. Thus those religions which preach that everyone else is going to die (when believers live)/burn in hell/have to come back in the next life as an insect are the ones which grow.

    But really, it doesn't make much sense, does it? I mean, why should anyone trust your judgement over their's? Why would God tell one person the truth rather than another? Why should there only be one right way of looking a life and God (especially if he is beyond our understanding)?

  • riz
    riz

    Six,

    That's a question I have struggled with too. I'm a good person. Meek, even, when appropriate. I'd like to think that god, if he/she exists, will let that count for something.

    In fact, he isn't sure he sees any evidence for Gods existance, save for the uncanny brilliance he thinks he sees in the natural world, and a few spooky stories riz tells.

    Aww, Sixy, I hope I didn't scare you. That wasn't my intention. If you want, I'll read you a bedtime story. But not from 'My Book of Bible Stories,' because then you would really have some disturbing nightmares.

    rizzy

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    All I can say is "you are not alone". I think when the organization of JW's failed us, so did God. For me the Borg was GOD!! When it died, in my heart, so did God. I am finally finding him again, but it has been a six year struggle. In the beginning I lost 54 pounds, and I felt it was from letting go of guilt. Now I am gaining weight, and I have no explanation. I just want it to STOP!!! I am a stress eater, so that might explain it.

  • thinkers wife
    thinkers wife

    Six,
    I have been reading and posting on this board for quite a few months now. One common thread I have seen among almost all of us is confusion about our belief system.
    It has been said before on this forum, but I believe it bears repeating. Leaving the org. is like divorce/death. We have to go through all the stages. Anger, fear, guilt ect.
    It is not easy going from someone doing all our thinking for us to thinking for ourselves. We have to re-find ourselves.
    Personally, I feel the same way about the Bible. I question whether it is inspired. I think that it and other holy books that claim inspiration have good principles.
    I am at the place right now where if there is a God or higher being, doctrine and belief system isn't really all that important. What is important is to live our lives to benefit others and have joy for ourselves.
    I may get to another stage later. And that will be OK too!
    TW

  • patio34
    patio34

    Hi all,

    I think that the description that AA uses and that some Catholics have borrowed fit EVEN MORE for us. And that is "Recovering JWs." It IS a recovery process. We need 12 steps--at least--to become our own person again.

    It seems the 1st step is educating oneself. Or could it be "Hi my name is Pat and I have been enslaved by a cult." Or how about . . .

    Pat

  • Big Jim
    Big Jim

    I have been out of the non-truth for almost 5 years now and I have come to some what I believe to be some very logical conclusions.

    First of all I believe that if Jehovah was able to be so clear in the scriptures as to what is right and what is wrong, then why was he so vauge in the area whether or not there is one right religion are if there is only one way of serving him.

    I do believe there is an Almighty God and I believe that he expects us to be good people and to live a life that is good and fulfilling.
    I do not believe that he ever intended to burden his creation down with guilt and fear which I believe is a product of all religion and without that product I believe you would still have a lot of good people on this earth that would be pleasing to the Creator

    As far as what happens to you when your life is over here on earth?
    I think that is where real faith comes in, if you really believe that our Creator is wise and want's what is best for us I think you should not overly concern yourself with that issue and leave it to Him.

    (SOME FAMOUS QUOTES ON RELIGION)

    There is only one religion, though there are a hundred versions of it.

    A man has no religion who has not slowly and painfully gathered one together, adding to it, shaping it; and one's religion is never complete and final, it seems, but must always be undergoing modification.

    All religions have based morality on obedience, that is to say, on voluntary slavery. That is why they have always been more pernicious than any political organization. For the latter makes use of violence, the former -- of the corruption of the will.

    A religion, that is, a true religion, must consist of ideas and facts both; not of ideas alone without facts, for then it would be mere Philosophy; -- nor of facts alone without ideas, of which those facts are symbols, or out of which they arise, or upon which they are grounded: for then it would be mere History.

    Life is really about a spiritual unfolding that is personal and enchanting -- an unfolding that no science or philosophy or religion has yet fully clarified.

    When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. And that's my religion.

    The Bible knows nothing of solitary religion.

    However sugarcoated and ambiguous, every form of authoritarianism must start with a belief in some group's greater right to power, whether that right is justified by sex, race, class, religion or all four. However far it may expand, the progression inevitably rests on unequal power and airtight roles within the family.

    Those who believe in their truth -- the only ones whose imprint is retained by the memory of men -- leave the earth behind them strewn with corpses. Religions number in their ledgers more murders than the bloodiest tyrannies account for, and those whom humanity has called divine far surpass the most conscientious murderers in their thirst for slaughter.

    Bigotry murders religion to frighten fools with her ghost.

    Christianity has operated with an unmitigated arrogance and cruelty -- necessarily, since a religion ordinarily imposes on those who have discovered the true faith the spiritual duty of liberating the infidels.

    People in general are equally horrified at hearing the Christian religion doubted, and at seeing it practiced.

    Religions are the great fairy tales of conscience.

    Philosophy offers the rather cold consolation that perhaps we and our planet do not actually exist; religion presents the contradictory and scarcely more comforting thought that we exist but that we cannot hope to get anywhere until we cease to exist. Alcohol, in attempting to resolve the contradiction, produces vivid patterns of Truth which vanish like snow in the morning sun and cannot be recalled; the revelations of poetry are as wonderful as a comet in the skies -- and as mysterious. Love, which was once believed to contain the Answer, we now know to be nothing more than an inherited behavior pattern.

    It is not enough for us to prostrate ourselves under the tree which is Creation, and to contemplate its tremendous branches filled with stars. We have a duty to perform, to work upon the human soul, to defend the mystery against the miracle, to worship the incomprehensible while rejecting the absurd; to accept, in the inexplicable, only what is necessary; to dispel the superstitions that surround religion --to rid God of His Maggots.

    The most dangerous madmen are those created by religion, and people whose aim is to disrupt society always know how to make good use of them on occasion.

    In morals what begins in fear usually ends in wickedness; in religion what begins in fear usually ends in fanaticism. Fear, either as a principle or a motive, is the beginning of all evil.

    There cannot be a personal God without a pessimistic religion. As soon as there is a personal God he is a disappointing God.

    The guarantee that our self enjoys an intended relation to the outer world is most, if not all, we ask from religion. God is the self projected onto reality by our natural and necessary optimism. He is the not-me personified.

    The only thing of weight that can be said against modern honor is that it is directly opposite to religion. The one bids you bear injuries with patience, the other tells you if you don't resent them, you are not fit to live.

    Monarchies, aristocracies, and religions are all based upon that large defect in your race -- the individual's distrust of his neighbor, and his desire, for safety's or comfort's sake, to stand well in his neighbor's eye. These institutions will always remain, and always flourish, and always oppress you, affront you, and degrade you, because you will always be and remain slaves of minorities. There was never a country where the majority of the people were in their secret hearts loyal to any of these institutions.

    The difference between a saint and a hypocrite is that one lies for his religion, the other by it.

    It is a quite remarkable fact that the great religions of the most civilized peoples are more deeply fraught with sadness than the simpler beliefs of earlier societies. This certainly does not mean that the current of pessimism is eventually to submerge the other, but it proves that it does not lose ground and that it does not seem destined to disappear.

    My religion consists of a humble admiration of the unlimitable superior who reveals Himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.

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