seventy schmeventy

by peacefulpete 6 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Much time has been expended trying to make sense of the 70 years of desolation claimed in parts of the Bible with no success. I have in the past presented what i feel was evidence that the so called desolation was in fact 49 years in duration and was know as such by one of the authors of Daniel. This is the conclusion drawn by most Bible commentaries and reference works. Also the matter of what actually happened verses the Bible's description of "empty land" has been posted here before. It has also been suggested by a number of authors that the significance of certain numbers (eg.3,7,10,12) to ancient superstitious peoples is reason enuf to interpret the 70 (7x10)as literary rather than literal. I ran across an interesting piece of parallelism in Babylonian texts.

    "Seventy years, the reckoning of it's destruction which He had inscribed, the merciful God Marduke, as soon as his heart had calmed down, reversed the order (of the sign) and ordered it's resettlement after eleven years." Babylonian Inscription of Esarhaddon

    The cuneiform text seeks to rationalize Babylon's destruction by Sennacherib as an act of punishment by Marduke but yet explains the early restoration of the city as an act of compassion on Marduke's part. The 70 year motif is nontheless interesting.

  • sens
    sens

    All That Never Made Much Sense To Me when i was in the org...Couldnt really get into it.

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    Some translations render the account "70 years in Babylon". Others render it "70 years of Babylon". If you take the latter approach, and count the number of years that Babylon was dominant in the world, you come reasonably close.

    On the other hand, the book of Daniel was written 300-400 years after the fact, and contains numerous other anachronysms. So, why bother trying to reconcile an error? It's just an error, like many others in the Bible.

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    You know, this seventy years and the confusion on how to calculate it amazes me. That's because all these theories are given and there doesn't seem to be anybody bothering to check with the Jews, namely, JOSEPHUS THE FAMOUS JEWISH HISTORIAN as to how he interprets the 70 years and where he places it. Or if they have, they have not taken it seriously. Therefore, just for the record, I'll quickly show you what Josephus' 70-year reference is and how you can make it Biblically compatible. Not to say you have to accept this view, but only because it has to be considered as part of the historical picture.

    Basically, Josephus claims that 70 years began in the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar with the last deportation of those people who had ran down to Egypt and had returned to Jerusalem briefly before being deported to Babylon. So according to Josephus, there is no need to insert any other interpretation or "mystery" over the 70 years; it's only a matter of seeing if the Bible agrees: Here's his quote in Ant. 11.1.1

    IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon. God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity. And these things God did afford them; for he stirred up the mind of Cyrus and made him write this throughout all Asia "Thus saith Cyrus the king: Since God Almighty hath appointed me to be king of the habitable earth, I believe that he is that God which the nation of the Israelites worship; for indeed he foretold my name by the prophets, and that I should build him a house at Jerusalem in the country of Judea."

    BIBLICALLY HARMONIZING 70 YEARS FROM THE LAST DEPORTATION TO THE FIRST OF CYRUS:

    Not that hard to do really. That is, the Bible definitely agrees with Josephus regarding this interpretation of the 70 years. Here's how:

    1) 2 Chronicles 36:20 confirms that it was the "people remaining from the sword" who were carried off to be servants of "Nebuchadnezzar and his sons". This is the reference made by Josephus. The term "remaining from the sword" is a reference to the Jews who had escaped the sword of Nebuchadnezzar in Egypt. Jer. 44:28 "And as for those escaping from the sword, they will return from the land of Egypt to the land of Judah, few in number..." So point #1 is that this is talking about the last remaining Jews at the last deportation. 2 Chronicles 36 goes on further to say that the land was emptied to pay back it's sabbaths for 70 years. This would be consistent with Josephus' claim that 70 years elapsed from this last deportation until the 1st of Cyrus.

    2) We have a confirmation that the 70 years did not begin until 4 years after the destruction of Jerusalem by comparing Zechariah 1 and 7. There are two references to 70 years here. One indicating 70 years expiring in the 2nd of "Darius" after the denunciation of the cities which refers to the destruction of Jerusalem; and a second 70 years expired in the 4th year of Darius after the mourning in the 7th month, which would have been for Gedeliah. But the Jews were still wondering when would God "show mercy to the cities", that is, allow them to be inhabited and rebuilt, which means that the Jews were still in exile in the 2nd and 4th years of Darius. But there is no problem with this since 70 years from the fall of Jerualem and 70 years from the beginning of the mourning over Gedaliah two years later would not have ended the 70 years of the land paying back it's sabbaths or the 70 years of exile of those of the last deportation! Those 70 years would not have ended until after another 2 years, after the sixth year of Darius. Thus, this is a confirmation that 70 literal years were involved after the last deportation since the Jews were still in exile 70 years after the fall of Jerusalem per the Bible. This also tells us, though, that Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Pesians 6 years before the 70 years ended and that Darius the Mede thus ruled for six years before Cyrus came to the throne. That is why the 70 years end with Cyrus comes to the throne (see below)

    2) The "royalty of Persia" mentioned at 2 Chronicles 36 thus now comes into focus. Likely the only reason the Bible made a specific distinction between Darius, the Mede and Cyrus the PERSIAN was because even though Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians, Darius the Mede ruled for six years before the Jews were released. But Cyrus became king over all of Persia after the rule of Darius the Mede and it was in his 1st year that the Jews were released. Thus to specifically fulfill when the Jews would be released, 2 Chronicles stipulates the "ROYALTY OF PERSIA" in deference to the royalty of the Medes, thus excluding Darius the Mede.

    3) Dariuis the Mede the "son" of Nebuchadnezzar. Finally, it should be noted that even though Darius the Mede was the king of the Medes, he was also a Babylonian prince and the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar. Babylonian historical references indicate that one of the daughters of Nebuchadnezzar was given to the king of the Medes in a peace agreement thus resulting in the birth of Darius the Mede. Other records show Darius the Mede as a general in the Babylonian army when he attacked Astyages. These are indications that he was a Babylonian prince besides the Biblical reference that confirms that he was the son of Nebuchadnezzar. Whether this rule was in semi-cooperation with Nabonidus who was at large focussed on worshipping his Moon God is not clear. But what basically happened administratively in Babylon when Darius took over was that he killed his cousin, Belshazzar and replaced him on the throne.

    Now. That's the Biblical explanation of the 70 years. It's not that difficult or at all mysterious.

    THE CONFUSION: The only reason why there would be some confusion or those who want to pretend the 70 years have a flexible reference in the Bible is because of the need to try to match or coordinate the 70 years mentioned in the Bible with the Neo-Babylonian Period which is too short to accommodate these 70 years. The conflict betwen the Bible and the pagan records therefore, since the Bible is the more reliable history, has to do with the revision of Babylonian records by the Persians who removed 26 years from the Babylonian records, and those are the records that have survived. Fortunately the VAT4596, an astronomical text, was discovered to contain the original dating of year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar to 511BCE in the midst of many other references to 568BCE, which is the revised date for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar. This not only proves the Persians maintained two dates for the reign of Nebuchadnezzar but that they changed year 511BCE to 568BCE. If that is true and the Bible is true, then 511BCE should be compatible with the Biblical absolute and relative chronology. It is!

    511 BCE, YEAR 37 OF NEBUCHADNEZZAR: 511 BCE is, indeed, the Biblical date for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar which agrees with the VAT4956 reference and also includes the 70 years for the last deportation as follows:

    The "70 weeks" prophecy requires that prophecy to begin in 455BCE with the "word going foth to rebulid Jerusalem". It is based upon 483 years from the time of the baptism of Christ back to the time when Jerusalem began to be rebuilt. Thus that word went forth in the 1st of Cyrus when Jerusalem was first began to be rebuilt. When you date the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE and then go back 70 years you arrive at 525BCE for the last deportation and thus year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. If year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar fell originally in 525BCE, then his original 37th year would fall in 511BCE! Which is my that cryptic reference is found in the VAT4956.

    Therefore, the "mystery" over the 70 years is now over. Because of the VAT4956 double dating to 511BCE we now have harmony between the Babylonian records and the Bible. The problem before was due to Babylonian record revisionism which has now been exposed.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    I wondered how long it would take you to leap in and rescue us.

  • Navigator
    Navigator

    Interesting post. You are probably correct. Both 7 and 70 are popular numbers in ancient writings. The only way to get 70 literal years is to start counting from 607 which is probably the first year that Israel starting paying tribute to Babylon. I believe that most scholars agree that the land was not laid waste until about 585 after Israel "reneged" on the deal. A stubborn and stiff necked lot, those Jews, eh?

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    <DIV class=post> <DIV class=quote> <DIV class=post>Interesting post. ; You are probably correct. ; Both 7 and 70 are popular numbers in ancient writings. ; The only way to get 70 literal years is to start counting from 607 which is probably the first year that Israel starting paying tribute to Babylon. ; I believe that most scholars agree that the land was not laid waste until about 585 after Israel "reneged" on the deal. ; A stubborn and stiff necked lot, those Jews, eh?</DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV class=post>You know, I might be persuaded to consider the above, claiming the 70 years makes more sense counted from 607BCE. ; ONLY PROBLEM IS that you have to deal with the JEWISH HISTORIAN, JOSEPHUS who claims that the 70 years began in the 23rd of Nebuchadnezzar. ; </DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>So does it matter what "most SCHOLARS agree" on? ; </DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>NO. ; </DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>You have to deal with the historical reference from the Jews themselves as to when their 70 years occurred. ; Thus it was NEVER an issue of interpreting anything vague in the scriptures, whetehr "in Babylon" or "at Babylon" was significant. ; </DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>In other words, take the Bible out of the equasion and you still have to deal with Josephus' concept and report, whether right or not, that he thought the 70 years began in the 23rd of Nebuchadnezzar, thus introducing 70 years from that time to the first of Cyrus. ; ; Thus what "most scholars" think about the 70 years matters not, because they would be interpreting the BIBLE at this point and thus cease to become scholars and now wear the hat of being "prophet", especially if they think there is any significance to the Biblical reference to the 70 years at all since Josephus tells us exactly where the Jewish 70 years should be placed. ; </DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>A similar situation would be like a school kid your age telling you to do something when your mother was right there telling you to do something else. ; Who are you going to listen to? ; Who has the AUTHORITY? ; You know? ; You have Josephus here and you're suggesting that he should have checked with "most scholars" first before he came up with his 70 years theory? ; In the meantime, why didn't the scholars check with Josephus first?</DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>Josephus preempts the "authority" of any scholars from interpreting the Biblical 70 years, since he's a Jewish scholar. ; </DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>Bottom line, you have to consider the Biblical reference to the 70 years as a CONTRADICTION if you think the Babylonian records are more reliable, whether you like it or not. ; </DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>OR....be academically ineffective.</DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV> <DIV class=post>Here is JOSEPHUS, THE JEWISH HISTORIAN'S THOUGHTS ON THE 70 YEARS.....</DIV> <DIV class=post> ;</DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4> <DIV class=quote> <DIV class=post><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>IN the first year of the reign of<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> ; </SPAN>Cyrus which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon. God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity. And these things God did afford them; for he stirred up the mind of Cyrus and made him write this throughout all Asia "Thus saith Cyrus the king: Since God Almighty hath appointed me to be king of the habitable earth, I believe that he is that God which the nation of the Israelites worship; for indeed he foretold my name by the prophets, and that I should build him a house at Jerusalem in the country of Judea."</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV> <P> ;</P> <P>PROBLEMS:</P> <P>1. ; ; Definitely mentions 70 years of Jeremiah's prophecy.</P> <P>2. ; Definitely defines "servitude" vs land desolation.</P> <P>3. ; Dates 70 years from last deportation.</P> <P> ;</P> <P>And now you know why "scholarship" is very overrated.....obviously. </P> <P> ;</P> <P>JCanon</P> <P></FONT></SPAN> ;</P>

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit