Redating the bible-Song of deborah (Shamgar)

by HowTheBibleWasCreated 4 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • HowTheBibleWasCreated

    What we know:

    . The Hebrew language in biblical form did not exit until after 800 BCE (Likely 722)

    The presents Ex 15 and Judges 5 as early but not contemporary.

    Well wake up... I'm a minimalist however I know the song of Deborah fits somewhere...

    Like before Omri.. (Established as the FIRST Israelite ruler of Israel..)

    So where does that leave Deborah or the Song of the Sea... Both early Hebrew but not Canaanite...

    The answer laid in Shamngar...Note:

    The other mention of Shamgar, that in the Song of Deborah, connects Shamgar with a low period of Israelite society, and thus some scholars suspect him to have been a foreigner causing the oppression of Israelite society, rather than an Israelite ruler.[5] From the form of the name, it is suspected that Shamgar may actually have been a Hittite, a similar name occurring with Sangara, a Hittite king of Carchemish; it is also the case that Anath is the name of a Canaanite deity, and son of Anath is thus merely a royal title.[5][3] Additionally, there is reason to suspect that far from being an Israelite hero, Shamgar may actually have been the father of Sisera

    Sangars is:

    Sangara was a king of Carchemish, who until now was only known from Assyrian sources (but in 2015 he has been finally identified in Hieroglyphic Luwian too by the Turco-Italian Archaeological Expedition at Karkemish).[1] He is documented for 870 to 848 BC.[2]

    Sangara likely accessed the throne of Carchemish only a short time after king Katuwa known from Hieroglyphic Luwian sources.[3] He is only mentioned in texts of the Assyrian kings Ashurnasirpal II and Shalmaneser III.[4]

    First, Sangara was tributary of Ashurnasirpal II.[5] In 870 BC[6] (alternative dating: 882 BC[7]) the Assyrian king crossed the Euphrates and first turned against Carchemish. Facing the Assyrian army Sangara captulated quickly and paid a rich tribute because Carchemish was one of the wealthiest Syro-Hittite states of that time. He also had to send his chariotry, cavalry and infantry to support the Assyrian army. In return Sangara and Carchemish were spared by the Assyrians.[8]

    In 858 BC Sangara participated in an anti-Assyrian coalition against Shalmaneser III which was formed by Aḫuni of Bit Adini, Hayyanu of Sam'al, Šuppiluliuma of Pattin and himself. They attacked the Assyrian army on the territory of Sam'al but were repelled.[9] The uprising of Carchemish continued until Shalmaneser III destroyed the fortified city of Sazabu on the territory of Carchemish in 857 BC. Sangara capitulated and paid rich tribute.[10]

    In 853 BC, Sangara paid tribute to the Assyrians again.[11]

    In 849 BC, Sangara tried uprising again, this time forming an alliance with Hadram of Bit Agusi. Shalmaneser III invaded the state of Carchemish, destroying and burning several cities in Sangara's dominion. Sangara capitulated but not for long. In 848 BC, Hadram and he uprose again Shalmaneser III reacted by capturing and destroying 97 of Sangara's cities. For the period after 848 BC nothing more is known about Sangara but it is likely stayed on his throne as a faithful vassal of the Assyrian king as his ally Hadram of Bit Agusi did.[12

    So this is the dating of that song... likely also before Omri... meaning:m Jeroboam, Abajam, Baassha,Elah are myths...

    This song introduces YHWH to Northern Canaan and thus we have no need to worship the god of Edom .. Like half the world does... Christians, Islams, Jews...

  • David_Jay

    Jewish scholarship comes to a conclusion that is somewhat similar to yours.

    While sages of the Second Temple era held the book to be a product of the prophet Samuel, today we Jews employ critical methodology that lends to a different view. The book appears to be a patchwork of folklore, legendary tales based likely on historical figures but with little of the history kept intact. Composed likely after the northern kingdom of Israel fell (the late 8th or 7th century B.C.E.), it has a very pro-Davidic stance. It may have originally been a composition or a collection of stories devised to promote the worship of YHVH when the Davidic dynasty adopted it as the state religion and enforced this requisite via a political initiative.

    However what we have today has been assembled via heavy and complex redaction, and the later editors have left even less of the history than the original once did, focusing on the religious significance of the folktales instead of offering journalistic reports on a historical tableau.

    The Song of Deborah does appear to be older than the rest of the work. It employs an archaic form of Hebrew, and our modern Jewish scholars suggest that the song existed before the narrative that is said to have inspired the song. It may be older even than the song of Exodus 15, used as a template by the Jews of the Babylonian diaspora to flesh out the narrative of the crossing of the Sea of Reeds.

    The only real difference from your take is that we Jews hold to the view that YHVH was probably introduced via the Moabite tribes of Sinai instead of the Edomites.

  • careful

    we Jews

    I didn't know all Jews were so united!

  • David_Jay


    "We Jews" does not mean to imply anything more than that the data I am providing comes forth from Jewry.

    Since Judaism is practiced, there are no requisites for belief or faith in a common creed. In fact, "we Jews" have a strong tendency to relish in our differences of opinion and approach. The fact that we are named after Jacob and not Abraham, the nation of "Israel," demonstrates that we are a people encouraged to "wrestle with God" and not settle on any particular answer or singular way.

    Unlike some Christians and groups like the JWs and Mormons, uniformity is not something we strive for.

    The information I provided covers the two main views, but there are a plethora in between that space does not permit me to include. Unlike some religions, Jews are often a little less concerned with knowing precisely the actual origins of the material and a bit more concerned on how to apply the material in practical ways in today's world. Again, this is because Judaism is not a religion of faith or belief but of doing and accomplishing.

  • snowbird


    I like that, David_Jay.

    It is my aim to get to Mobile, Alabama, and sit in on one of those community meetings that a rabbi conducts.

    Right now, I'm working on a timeline from the entering of the Promised Land to the birth of King David, which, if my calculations are correct, covered 366 years.

    I heart all things Jewish.



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