Troublesome Trinty Verses Part 7

by hooberus 7 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    This is part 7 of a series of threads which discuss verses used by the watchtower and others to "disprove" the Trinity and deity of Jesus Christ. Each thread looks at a different verse. Please restrict your comments to the verse or closely related concept. The subject of this thread is the verses which describe knowledge which the Father seems to have exclusively.

    Matthew 24:36

    "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matthew 24:36

    The following is from David Reed:

    http://www.cftf.com/comments/ntansw01.html

    "Jehovah's Witnesses use this verse to argue against the doctrine of the Trinity and to support their teaching that the Father alone is God while the Son is the first angel God created and the Holy Spirit is a mere impersonal force, like electricity, that God uses to accomplish his will.

    Before attempting to answer them on their misuse of this verse, we should first note a fundamental difference between Jehovah's Witnesses and Christians: They feel that they can neatly fit all known facts about God into a simple framework of clearly-stated beliefs, while we recognize much about God to be beyond our limited human understanding and comprehension.

    We know the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit personally and intimately as a little child knows and trusts its parents, but we are also like that little child in its inability to grasp fully the relationship between its father and mother--how their sexual union makes them "one flesh," the principles of husbandly headship and wifely subjection, the legal and emotional aspects of the marriage bond, and so on. Similarly, how one of the Persons of the Godhead can know something and another not know is beyond our minds to understand. And if it is beyond our grasp, how much more so is it beyond the comprehension of Jehovah's Witnesses! ("The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."--1 Corinthians 2:14, NIV)

    When we offer the possible explanation that the Son may not have known "that day or hour" because he was speaking in his human incarnation, the Witness may shoot back the challenge, "But why does the holy spirit [sic] not know?"--a question prompted by the JW handbook Reasoning from the Scriptures, page 426.

    While we can freely acknowledge that it may be beyond our human brain capacity to grasp how one member of the Godhead can know something and another not know--and that we can know only the details God chooses to reveal to us in human terms--we can also offer this possible explanation: Namely, that Jesus was taking it for granted that the Holy Spirit knows everything the Father knows. The JW New World Translation says at 1 Corinthians 2:10-11 that "the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God," and that "no one has come to know the things of God, except the spirit of God."

    By the way, notice that the verse says, "no oneŠexcept the spirit of God." So the Holy Spirit is someone, rather than some thing. (If you ask people to fill in the blank in a sentence such as, "No one knows my address except ________," they would fill in the blank with someone's name--not with an impersonal thing like a book or a computer.) So, by saying, "No oneŠexcept the spirit," the New World Translation reveals that the Holy Spirit is someone!"

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    In Genesis Chapter 18 Jehovah appeared as a man with two angels (some consider the two angels to also be Jehovah, however this is another subject). While Jehovah spake as a man to Abraham, He seemed to be operating with limited knowlege:

    "And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." Genesis Chapter 18:20-21

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Jesus has knowledge and abilities which seem to be limited exclusively to Jehovah.

    "Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)" 1 Kings 8:39

    "I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings." Jeremiah 17:10

    "And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." Revelation 2:23

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    The above being who searches the hearts also knows the "mind" of the Spirit. Hense the Spirit also has a mind and knowledge.

    "And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans Chapter 8:27

    "But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." 1 Corinthians Chapter 2:10-11

  • archangel01
    archangel01
    While we can freely acknowledge that it may be beyond our human brain capacity to grasp how one member of the Godhead can know something and another not know--and that we can know only the details God chooses to reveal to us in human terms--we can also offer this possible explanation: Namely, that Jesus was taking it for granted that the Holy Spirit knows everything the Father knows. The JW New World Translation says at 1 Corinthians 2:10-11 that "the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God," and that "no one has come to know the things of God, except the spirit of God."

    By the way, notice that the verse says, "no oneŠexcept the spirit of God." So the Holy Spirit is someone, rather than some thing. (If you ask people to fill in the blank in a sentence such as, "No one knows my address except ________," they would fill in the blank with someone's name--not with an impersonal thing like a book or a computer.) So, by saying, "No oneŠexcept the spirit," the New World Translation reveals that the Holy Spirit is someone!"

    Good point but remember Jesus was perfect trulyMan trulyGod hewas not taking the holy sprirt for granted for he was sinless, I think maybe the Holy Sprirt does know the day an hour but because of his Position cannot reveal the date, however he can let us know by the course of time how close it is in that respect.

  • Dean Porter
    Dean Porter

    Hooberus,


    you clearly see the problem that this verse presents to your belief that the three persons of the Trinity are supposed to be co-equal; because how can they be if two persons do not share the same knowledge as the third person.


    In reading your attempt to try and solve this problem you have not provided any scripture to explain "why" The Son or the Holy Spirit do not know this Information about the 'Day or the Hour'.


    Instead you suggest that there is a 'deficiency' in the knowledge of God stated elsewhere in scripture. This seems like a strange defence to me as you appear to be undermining God's Omnipotence.


    Further to this you suggest that this paradox of different levels of knowledge between the Godhead is probably such that mans mind could not comprehend and that also we can only know those details of God that God chooses to reveal to us.


    You then attempt an explaination by saying that Jesus must have just ASSUMMED that the Holy Spirit knew and and thus didn't need to mention him in this verse.


    I think your reasoning is seriously flawed for the following reasons :


    1. The scripture simply states that ONLY the Father knows. So this imbalance of

    knowledge is a fact.


    2. If Jesus ASSUMMED that the Holy Spirit knew this information, then he was WRONG

    for assumming. If he was wrong then he is not omnipotent and he is not God.

    Further to this point ; why would he assumme this if he actually states that

    Only the Father knows.


    3. Whilst there may be some things about God that our minds could not comprehend

    this is not one of them because God has revealed the details of this matter to

    us in the bible.

    If you care to take a closer look at The Book of Acts Chapter 1

    verses 6 and 7 you will see that Jesus states that the Father has kept this

    information to himself. Try reading this verse in different translations and

    the meaning remains the same, i.e. that the Father alone has this knowledge.


    For example.....


    Schonfield's translation... " these are matters which the Father has RESERVED

    EXCLUSEVLY for himself."


    Barclay's translation... " these things are SOLELY in the Fathers control."


    Moffat's translation... " that the Father has fixed by his OWN AUTHORITY."


    Therefore the scriptures argue against there being equality of knowledge between the supposed three persons of the Godhead.


    Thus it lays bare your erroneous supposition that if the scriptures say something to the contradiction of the Trinity it is simply something we can't understand.


    When in fact there is another Option that you just will not admit to seeing, which is that the Father alone is GOD and that there is in fact no triune Godhead taught in scriptures.


    I hope this information helps you reach a better understanding .


    Dean.

  • hooberus
  • Hamas
    Hamas

    I appreciate your faith.

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