Revelation 5:9,10 and the 144,000 (page 2)

Crazyguy

It's also important to note that the scriptures in the greek state that they are not kings but only priests and they reign but do not rule. This is a play on the word in duetoranomy where it say they Israel will be a holy nation a kingdom of priests Or something to that effect.

prologos

wt equates the 144000 with genuine partakers, sealed ones Rev 7. . The clincher of course is Rev 20, where, to qualify to rule with christ, you better be able to show your severed head or other axed, guillotined vitals.

zeb

Some months ago I bought a new Bible for myself it is the ESV or English Standard version pub by Crossway.

It has many little footnotes that will say that ..word..meaning in Hebrew is not certain. Often it gives a additional meaning which is in English very different. As has been covered by SAENAME.

Incidentally many translators of the modern age refer to Wescott and Hort. Yet,...these learned men were not at one with the scriptures in many key areas. Check,... scatteredchristians.org/WescottHort.html.

and one site rumoured (I stress that rumoured) that they used the occult. !

Perry

Dark Knight.

Thank you for your thoughts. I agree with much. I think a lot of Christians are perfectly happy in lumping together the 144K with the blood washed multitude.

After all, these peripheral hopes ARE NOT the hope of Church Age Christians, which is where we are still at - even though this dispensation is about to conclude.

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ - Titus 2: 13

The blessed hope of Christians is the appearing. Church age believers are not hoping for surviving Armageddon, or the great tribulation, being good enough, Gods forgiveness, etc. God's forgiveness was guaranteed to believers on Calvary Hill with the final proclamation, "It is finished".

However, Jesus actually returns twice, once in the clouds...just as he left. At that time, the trump will sound and all the righteous dead will hear his voice and will rise to meet him in the air, with glorified bodies, like his. (not spirits) These people are caught up to meet him in the air. Jesus takes this group (1st resurrection) into heaven for one giant Almighty 7 Year PARTY!) This is one party no one should miss.

But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. - Mt 6:29

But, the catching up of believers is not the end of salvation. There are still two more groups:

1. 144k Israelites

2. The blood washed multitude

After the rapture, Jesus will not come back all the way to the earth until the Jewish people cry out "blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord". This will be at a very late hour after the Antichrist has devastated the earth with various wars.

Remember, the the OT contract is with the Nation of Israel, & was not made void by the ratification of the NT contract with individuals.

Both contracts guarantee survival. One is for the survival of a nation. One is for the survival of the individual. "Better promises" and better terms.

Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. - Romans 11

Christians are not the stalk. We are the "branches" that were "grafted in". The seed of the vine was the seed of faith planted by Abraham. It has been growing all this time on the earth.

So, there will be :

1. a salvation of primarily gentile (but also Jewish) believers who rule with Christ (Christians)

2. a national salvation of Israel after the rapture (which includes the 144K "out of every tribe")

3. an earthly salvation of people that will be left over in the earth after the rapture & after the great tribulation .

This last group attains entry into the earthly kingdom by nothing more than

a.) not taking the mark of the beast and

b.) being nice to the nation of Israel during the great tribulation. (The Antichrist seeks to destroy Israel but cannot)

This last group is somewhat clueless & surprised by their good fortune after witnessing so much carnage during the Great Tribulation:

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?.........
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Those that did not join in with the hatred of the Jews in the GT will be allowed to enter the Millennium Reign.

Jesus will be the King of Israel. It is going to happen, nothing can stop it. And all the peoples of the earth will be incredibly blessed by it.

Darkknight757

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on this subject. I always thought it cruel that the JW's deliver such a watered down message that really nobody understands and that is to be a "life saving work."

Although I am currently on a boat is very stormy weather regarding the bible, I find the idea that God extends mercy to people AFTER the great tribulation to those who see what's happening comforting. It reaffirms my old belief that God is loving and wants people to be saved.

mikeypants

Is there any talk of changing the 144k to symbolic? Hope so.

That's one of the things the wife says would never happen. After much questioning she admitted this would be cause for reconsideration of her faith in the organization.

But, if it did change, I'm certain she would rationalize it and be even more convinced the chariot is on the move.

Something like "It makes so much more sense now. I always believed in my heart that it was symbolic!"

😐

Darkknight757

The whole 1914 disaster should be enough to motivate most dubs to reconsider their stand with "true worship."

dontfitin

s there any talk of changing the 144k to symbolic? Hope so.
That's one of the things the wife says would never happen. After much questioning she admitted this would be cause for reconsideration of her faith in the organization.
But, if it did change, I'm certain she would rationalize it and be even more convinced the chariot is on the move.
Something like "It makes so much more sense now. I always believed in my heart that it was symbolic!"

I wonder if she realizes the whole reason the JWs believe there will be Christians with an earthly hope is because they limited the heavenly hope to a literal 144,000. When their numbers were clearly going to surpass that, they had to come up with something else to explain those people. If they ever backed out of it, there would be no reasoning at all for the Christian-earthly-hope argument.

Revelation 5:9,10 and the 144,000

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