Revelation 5:9,10 and the 144,000

by Darkknight757 17 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Darkknight757

  I hesitate to ask this question. During some recent research on YouTube I came across a few videos explaining how Watchtower manipulated Revelation 5:10. Revelation 5:10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,and they will reign on the earth.”" -NIV

  The NWT13 renders this verse: 10 and you made them to be a kingdom+ and priests to our God,+ and they are to rule as kings+ over the earth.”

  Instead of "on the earth", Watchtower renders the verse "over the earth" and makes the connection of these ones to the 144,000.

  
  

  So doing some digging into a few commentaries and considering the timing of Rev 5:10 it appears that this group has nothing at all to do with the 144,000. These ones represent the entire body of Christians living on earth today. They are a "kingdom" in that they are the large number. They are "priests" in that they serve God. They "reign on the earth" in that the Christian religion is the largest denomination in the world to date.

  Now concerning the 144,000, these ones actually appear to be converts AFTER the Great Tribulation but before Armageddon. So these are ones that decide to serve God instead of getting destroyed when they see all the signs that would be taking place during the tribulation.

  So for Watchtower to say that when the tribulation starts that the door is closed for new converts is yet another lie.

  Any thoughts?

  
  

  
  
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  darkspilver

  This is from their Kingdom Interlinear translation:

  

  DarK SpilveR

  That's all folks!
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  Darkknight757

  That's funny. So their own Interlinear bible renders it correct but not their bible.

  Add the fact that they render the verse "they reign as kings" is messed up too.
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  darkspilver

  You should download the free JW Library app

  In English it includes

  New World Translation 1984 revision (black)
  

  New World Translation 2013 revision (silver)

  Byington's Living English Translation (blue)
  

  American Standard Version (brown)
  

  Kingdom Interlinear (Greek Scriptures) (purple) #

  King James Translation
  

  # I presume the English translation in the Kingdom Interlinear would be the original New World Translation 1960 (green)
  

  You can also download other translation languages, such as Greek and Hebrew - and read them all side-by-side.

  
  

  DarK SpilveR

  That's all folks!
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  Darkknight757

  JW app doesn't work well on my phone. Not sure why but I take it as a sign.
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  Saename

  "Instead of "on the earth", Watchtower renders the verse "over the earth" and makes the connection of these ones to the 144,000."

  The Greek word this verse uses is ἐπί ("epi"). The problem with this word is that it has multiple meanings. It can mean different propositions in English:

  1. upon
  2. unto
  3. against
  4. in
  5. at
  6. on
  7. about
  8. over
  9. before
  10. by

  Here are some examples of verses in different translations:

  1. Matthew 7.25 uses "epi" to mean "upon" in KJV and INT.
  2. Matthew 10.18 uses "epi" to mean "before" in NAS, KJV, and INT.
  3. Matthew 10.21 uses "epi" to mean "against" in NAS, KJV, and INT.
  4. Matthew 18.13 uses "epi" to mean "over" in NAS and INT, whereas KJV renders "epi" as "of."

  In short, the rendering of "epi" as "over" in Rev. 5.10 is neither wrong nor right. It's just another example of the fact that the original New Testament cannot be reconstructed. There is not a single possibility to know what the authors meant when they penned their words. Each manuscript we have is different from each other, and some of the Greek words can mean different things, each of which interpretations can be considered agreeable depending on how you read the verses. This problem is especially evident when you attempt to interpret the prophecies.
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  leaving_quietly

  I agree with Saename.

  I would also point out that WTBTS only uses verse 9 and 10, but conveniently skips verse 8. Verse 8 is VERY important.

  "When he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, and each one had a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense. (The incense means the prayers of the holy ones.)"

  WTBTS teaches that the 24 elders ARE the 144,000. However, verse 10 says, "and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God." The four living creatures and the 24 elders are not talking about themselves, but some other group.

  Verse 9 also is important. "And they sing a new song, saying: You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,"

  There's two points here:

  1. "They sing a new song" - This seems like it would be the 144,000 because they too sing a new song. But, wait! There's a key difference. Rev 14:3 says: "And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth." So, here you have the four living creatures and the 24 elders in Rev 5:8 singing, but in Revelation 14, it's the 144,000 who are singing BEFORE the four living creatures and elders. AND it's only the 144,000 who could master that song. This means that the song sung in Revelation 5 is NOT the same song sung by the 144,000.
  
  2. Where are the 144,000 taken from? From the 12 tribes of Israel, 12,000 from each. Where do the great crowd come from? From all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.
  
  

  Incidentally, the Kingdom Interlinear has a chart in the opening cover.
  

  
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  prologos

  epy center in seismology: over, above the center. (any relevance of the use in modern languages)?

  what is is important to wt that they rule. how, where, really does not matter.
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  stuckinarut2

  It makes as much sense as a book like "lord of the rings" does....
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  Saename

  It makes as much sense as a book like "lord of the rings" does....
  

  I would have to disagree. Lord of the Rings makes sense. It's just that it's a fictional―not a factual―collection of books. When it comes to the Bible―and I'm talking about the Christian Bible, the New Testament―not only is it not factual while it claims to be so, it also doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I mean, the gospels don't even agree on the matter of when Jesus was born! Luke's story indicates that his Jesus was born 10 years after Matthew's Jesus. (You know, the census vs Herod the Great thing and all...)