To Active Jehovah's Witnesses Who Think Outside The Box: The "Woman and Male Child" of Rev 12 Reconsidered...

by BloodSweatAndTears 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • EverApostate
    EverApostate
    The Birth of God's Messianic Kingdom as described in Revelation Chapter 12 has always been a difficult problem for the Watchtower Society to explain

    As if all their other Explanations have proven to be true and consistent.

    Sorry, Im not a JW anymore but cant tolerate that point.

  • BloodSweatAndTears
    BloodSweatAndTears
    But if the messianic kingdom is born on earth, would that pose a problem as Jesus is a spirit creature who lives in heaven?
    I do not believe Jesus would come back to earth to live here as a man and rule an earthly kingdom.

    I agree, Heavenly Jesus would not return to earth to become the messiah again. That would not be God's Will.

    Instead it would be a second messiah, the Davidic Heir who was promised to rule the earth for all eternity. (2 Samuel 7:13) This kingdom would be an earthly kingdom that would last forever, for all eternity. This would be different from the rule of Jesus in heaven where after ruling in heaven for a specific period of time, he turns the kingdom back to Jehovah His Father for eternal rulership. (Compare Daniel 7:14 with 1 Corinthians 15:24)

    This earthly ruler who rules eternally, would be the coming of the promised "seed" or offspring of Adam and Eve. (Gen. 3:15)

    For a simplified and easy to understand explanation of the coming of the 2nd messiah on earth, please see the article: As Simple As Apple Pie

    BS&T

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Uhmmm... active JWs don’t think outside of the box, that’s why they’re active JWs.

    DD

  • BloodSweatAndTears
    BloodSweatAndTears

    Bobcat,

    BSAT,
    In case you didn't understand me, I agree with you that the WT's explanation is ludicrous. Based on the 'sun, moon, and stars' imagery near the beginning of the chapter, the "woman" most likely pictures Israel. At first natural Israel, and later the Christian "Israel of God."

    Thanks for clearing that up.

    So, who or what do you think the "male child" pictures that is born from this "woman"? (Rev. 12:5)

  • BloodSweatAndTears
    BloodSweatAndTears

    DATA-DOG

    Uhmmm... active JWs don’t think outside of the box, that’s why they’re active JWs.

    I can see your point.

    But, believe it or not, we are now being told there are many, many new ones that are visiting this discussion board. And surprisingly, some of these are active Jehovah's Witnesses, or at least for the time being have their names "on the books" still.

    Today many active Jehovah's Witnesses have questions about the things they see going on in the kingdom halls these days. Things they know are wrong. And they discuss these strange happenings between themselves, sometimes when they go out in the car group in field service. Especially in view of all of the hype and news coverage going on about the child abuse problem the organization is having.

    Thus, we are seeing a large influx of interested individuals joining and signing up for this discussion board too, of recent.

    You never know who is quietly listening in these days, and this scares the Watchtower Society to death.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    Pretty sure “Active Jehovah’s Witnesses” who “think outside the box” are a pretty small audience these days.

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Hi BSAT,

    A footnote in the NET Bible at Rev 12:1 says:

    Sunmoonstars. This imagery is frequently identified with the nation Israel because of Joseph’s dream in Gen 37.

    The whole Woman/Serpent image is reminiscent of Gen 3:15.

    Where Rev 12:5 refers to the 'woman giving birth to a son, a male child' is an allusion to Isa 66:7. The phrase about the child 'shepherding the nations with an iron rod' (also Rev 12:5) is an allusion to Ps 2:9.

    All these OT allusions bring to mind the Messiah as the "child." A comment in Constable's Notes says:

    In view of Old Testament imagery (cf. Isa. 54:1-6; Jer. 3:20; Ezek. 16:8-14; Hos. 2:19-20) and the following reasons, the “woman” seems to symbolize the nation of Israel.[422] She wears a crown (Gr. stephanos) with the sun, moon, and stars, as God pictured Israel in one of the nation’s early symbolic representations (Gen. 37:9-11; cf. Isa. 26:17-18; 60:1-3, 20). There are many figurative references to Israel as a travailing woman in the Old Testament (Is. 26:17-18; 66:7-9; Jer. 4:31; 13:21; Mic. 4:10; 5:3). She eventually gave birth to Christ (v. 5). In Genesis 37:9-10, the sun corresponds to Jacob, the moon to Rachel, and the 12 stars to Israel’s 12 sons (cf. 7:5-8; 21:12).

    The Abrahamic covenant has two sub-covenants. The 1st one produces the Messiah, the "seed of Abraham." (Gal 3:16) The 2nd is the new covenant. This produces the offspring of the seed, related to him via faith. (Gal 3:22-29)

    Regarding Rev 12:5, Constable's Notes comments:

    The birth of Jesus and His ascension are the events in view here. Satan failed to destroy Jesus at His birth, and because he also failed to destroy Him during His life and in His death, Jesus Christ ascended victoriously into heaven. Satan cannot persecute Him there. Christ will yet rule the world with an iron shepherd’s rod (Ps. 2). The emphases in this whole review of Satan’s opposition to Jesus are Jesus’ victory and Satan’s continuing antagonism.

    I think most commentaries are similar in thought as is Constable's Notes. I use that commentary simply because it is online (at NetBible.Org) and easy to copy from.

    So I think it is pretty obvious from the above that I view the "child" as the Messiah (Jesus). If so, then, the 'being caught up to God' would obviously refer to Jesus' resurrection and ascension to God. (And in this context, "caught up" would seem more apropos than "caught away." But that is probably splitting hairs.)

    If the Rev 12 passage is seen this way, the WT's explanation appears more to be an obvious form of eisegesis. Nothing more than an attempt to support their 1914/1919 idea. It only works because the WT demands unquestioning acceptance of their teachings.


  • BloodSweatAndTears
    BloodSweatAndTears

    Hi Golden4,

    If we consider the key bible text at Revelation 22:5 we see an interesting thought raised about the coming Messianic Kingdom and its duration and length of time this earthly kingdom itself exists. This verse ends by saying of this particular kingdom,

    "...and they will rule as kings forever and ever." (Revelation 22:5 NWT)

    These type of bible references actually prove to be impossible for the Watchtower Society to explain since they see this kingdom as being the heavenly kingdom ruled by Jesus. The Watchtower Society knows, Jesus and his heavenly rulers do not actually rule in heaven "forever and ever," as this kingdom must be turned back over to Jehovah after a limited period of time. Therefore they must say only the "everlasting effects" of this heavenly kingdom must continue forever, but not their actual rulership. That's their only way of explaining Revelation 22:5. (See 1 Corinthians 15:24.)

    However, if we were to view this kingdom as a much different kingdom, an eternal earthly kingdom, as the Davidic Kingdom that was promised to David at 2 Samuel 7:11-16, then Revelation 22:5 and other verses like Daniel 7:14 and many others would make total sense. (See Matthew 6:10.)

    This would resolve the whole problem and help us better understand what was originally promised at Genesis 3:15.

    For more information on the basis and foundation for belief in this eternal earthly kingdom based upon Genesis 3:15, see the article: As Simple As Apple Pie

  • BloodSweatAndTears
    BloodSweatAndTears

    Additionally, we can see that there are many other verses that make the same point of Revelation 22:5, that this is an everlasting earthly kingdom.

    For example lets take Daniel 7:27,

    "And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them." (Daniel 7:27 NWT)

    This is another verse that shows that the Davidic kingdom was promised to be an earthly kingdom that was to rule forever. (See 2 Samuel 7:11-16) The Watchtower Society does not teach this point nor understand it.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    The entirety of the book is a pastiche of imagery and mytheme drawn from OT and even more ancient sources. The combat myth of creation is heavily drawn upon here. To those back then with the proper experience with this material and how to interpret it, details are not that important other than identifying the overall message. That might seem confusing. That's because we are not first century Jews with a flare and thirst for this type of cryptic literature. Clearly Jesus is meant by the child and the mother likely serves 2 roles as the Jewish nation and the church. Michael as the archangle of Israel fights a chaos monster, here serving as a stand in for Satan. The entire context assumes the imminence of the final vindication of the author's sect. The city on seven hills obviously means Rome and the beast clearly refer to Emp. Nero and a revived Nero, perhaps as the person of Emp. Domitian. 1260 days is a motif drawn from Daniel to represent a short period nothing more. It has nothing to do with us or our times, it was a typically Jewish apocalyptic work reusing motifs and imagery drawn from the past. It also was pieced together in a book. Likely at least parts of it were a Jewish work then reworked as Christian. Many christaians objected to it for these reasons. It was only by the slow process of familiarity and the unfounded assertion that it was written by the Apostle John that it eventually became canon.

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