To Active Jehovah's Witnesses Who Think Outside The Box: The "Woman and Male Child" of Rev 12 Reconsidered...

by BloodSweatAndTears 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • BloodSweatAndTears
    BloodSweatAndTears

    To Active Jehovah's Witnesses Who Think Outside The Box: The "Woman" and "Male Child" of Rev 12 Reconsidered...

    The Birth of God's Messianic Kingdom as described in Revelation Chapter 12 has always been a difficult problem for the Watchtower Society to explain. This is because they can not figure out exactly where to place the woman of Revelation Chapter 12 who gives birth to the male child as to where this birth occurs, whether in heaven or on earth.

    The Watchtower Society decided to place the birth of the male child in heaven which would mean the woman was in heaven also to give birth to the male child. But of course, this is a problem since this same woman who supposedly gave birth to the male child in heaven is seen on earth when the Dragon was cast out of heaven, where he began to persecute her on earth (Compare Revelation 12:5,6 with Verses 13,14)

    You will notice in Verse 5 of Revelation Chapter 12, the Watchtower Society employs the expression the male child was "caught away" [Greek Harpazo] to God and his throne. However, we may find it interesting to note that many Bible translations actually render that same Greek word as saying "caught up" to God and his throne, instead of "caught away".

    Therefore if we proceeded on the basis, that the Greek word Harpazo should have been rendered "caught up" to God and his throne instead of "caught away" to God and his throne, as rendered in the New World Translation, then we would have to conclude the woman actually gave birth to the "male child" while she was on earth and NOT in heaven. Which of course, would automatically mean, the "male child" and "woman" both exist upon the earth, at the beginning before the child is quickly "caught up" to God and His Throne in heaven. (Rev 12:5)

    After the birth of the "male child" and the child being "caught up" to God occurs, the "woman" is left by herself on earth to be "persecuted" by the Dragon or Satan. (See Rev. 12:13)

    For more information on this topic, please see the article: A Glimpse Into The Future...Revelation 12 Jehovah's Witnesses In Bible Prophecy

    BS&T

  • Golden4Altar
    Golden4Altar

    I checked all those translations and the vast majority say "caught up". From what you are saying it looks like the WTS would have been in a pickle to translate that verse as "caught up." Because if they did that, God's messianic kingdom (or male child) would have been born on earth before it was caught up to heaven. That would have been a big departure from their present theology. It would change our understanding of who or what the woman represents that gave birth to this child.

    Thanks for the heads up.

  • lriddle80
    lriddle80

    Scholar Michael Heiser wrote about Revelation 12 and it's long, but he says it's about astrology and this points to a time in history that the stars aligned and the birth of Jesus into the world. It's interesting, for sure!


  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    The thought is interesting. But I'm afraid it can't be supported. What I mean is that the word can mean both "caught up" or "caught away." See this page at BibleHub. On the left is the definition. On the right are the 14 places it occurs in the NT. Sometimes it does have the idea of "caught up" (directionally). But at other times it has the idea of "caught (snatch) away" without any implicit direction in the context, or horizontal direction is implied in the context.

    It was a neat thought, but I don't think you can reasonably sustain it via the Greek. OTOH, here is a thread showing indications of when Satan is cast out of heaven. Since the "child's" being 'caught' to God's throne happens before Satan's ouster, then, his ouster from heaven would help bracket the time frame of the 'child's' being caught away/up'

    And here is a thread giving NT indications of when Jesus began ruling (related to the 'child' being caught away/up' to God's throne..

  • sir82
    sir82

    This guy is like the phantom....keeps popping up here every few years, always a new name.

    Same tortured & specious "reasoning", though.

  • BloodSweatAndTears
    BloodSweatAndTears

    Again, your big problem remains the same as what the Watchtower Society is struggling with namely, (a) what to do with the identity of the woman and (b) where to put her place of residence when the birth of the child occurs. You and the Watchtower Society have the same problem.

    The Watchtower has said the woman represents Jehovah's heavenly organization made up of angels who are in heaven. This means the child must be born in heaven. It also must mean the woman is also in heaven and Is thus, a spiritual heavenly entity...heavenly angels.

    However, the bible tells us that immediately after the birth of the child the woman is clearly dwelling upon the earth and is now receiving "persecution" from Satan, who has just been cast out of heaven. So how do they handle this new unexpected development?

    Well now, the Watchtower Society must change the identity of the woman completely and say it represents an earthly entity made up of the anointed remnant, humans on earth who are then "persecuted," and NOT a heavenly entity of angels after all. A complete change, (See Revelation 12:5,6 and 13,14)

    This is totally ridiculous and completely illogical if we stick closely to what the verses actually say.

    BS&T

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    BSAT,

    In case you didn't understand me, I agree with you that the WT's explanation is ludicrous. Based on the 'sun, moon, and stars' imagery near the beginning of the chapter, the "woman" most likely pictures Israel. At first natural Israel, and later the Christian "Israel of God."

  • BloodSweatAndTears
    BloodSweatAndTears

    Golden4Altar,

    I just wanted to add the thought, Jesus' words at Matthew 6:10 would give excellent support to the idea that the "Male Child" was actually born on earth, as the Messianic Kingdom of God. We remember Jesus taught us to pray for the Kingdom to come upon earth, just as it is in heaven.

    BS&T

  • Golden4Altar
    Golden4Altar

    Good point. I can see how Matthew 6:10 would fit in nicely with this understanding that the messianic kingdom or male child was born on earth, not in heaven as the WTS taught us. This makes more sense.

    But if the messianic kingdom is born on earth, would that pose a problem as Jesus is a spirit creature who lives in heaven?

    I do not believe Jesus would come back to earth to live here as a man and rule an earthly kingdom.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Active JWs who think outside the box? Is there such a thing? I suppose that’s not fair. There are some JWs who do explore ideas in interesting ways. But if they are really believers then there are always limits. Outside the box maybe, but still adhering to the instructions that come with the game inside the box.

    Is this JCanon?

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