Are gays really condemned in the Bible?

by jws 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jws

    So I was having this argument with a friend about the Westboro Baptist idiots. My point is that while they are horrible people, they are pretty much right in that the Bible is against gays because it has verses in both the old and the new testament. Which is one of many reasons to reject the bible as merely man-made rules from ancient middle-easterners.

    And she argued that there are problems in translation, etc. and that the bible really isn't anti-gay. So I looked some of that up, which was a mixed bag.

    Many people only look at Leviticus. And that can easily be dismissed in my opinion as laws for the Jews. And Christians can just say "But Jesus". And Jesus was an end to the Law and so on. Which allows them to dismiss all the goofiness like not eating shellfish or pigs or wearing 2 types of fabric, slavery rules, etc.

    But there are verses in the new testament. (Romans 1:26-27, 1 Cor 6:9-10, 1 Tim 1:9-11) but many say these are mistranslated and incorporating the bias of the translators.

    Like 1 Corinthians that says men who lie with men won't inherit the kingdom of god. Some people think it really means something different like effeminate men. What? Like that makes the bible any better? If you're not a manly-man, you don't inherit the kingdom of god? Or is it speaking about transgender people? Either way, it's poisonous bias.

    And others try to twist this and that. The Romans 1:26-27 verses, I found a site where people say. No, no, no, this isn't gay people, it's going against your orientation that's bad So if you're straight, having gay sex it's a problem. Or if you're gay having straight sex, it's a problem. Or, another argument is that Paul was just saying these are examples of bad arguments, here's the stuff you shouldn't listen to. What? Man, the twists and turns people will do to make the Bible say what they want it to.

    IMO, the bible is clearly anti-gay. And I'm NOT saying that being gay is bad. Re-read that before you go off on me. What I'm saying is that according to the bible it is and that makes the Bible bad.

    It's been my conjecture that you can't, as a Christian religion, say that being gay is OK. That they are two diametrically opposed positions. That you can't just redefine the bible just for your own personal likes and dislikes. And, IMO, go with being gay and drop the Bible.

    I know many people here know the bible well. What do you say? What does the Bible really mean?

  • OneEyedJoe

    I agree, there's no way to rationalize your way out of the bible being anti-gay.

    Even if you have to rely upon the mosaic law, it's still a big strike against the bible. Eating pork or shellfish or not wearing a fringe on your clothes are not innate like sexual orientation. So even if god only decided to force gay people into a life of pretending to be straight back then, it still shows that god is either a cruel jackass or he has no clue about the life that he supposedly created. Either way he's no god worth worshiping.

  • dubstepped

    The Bible is pretty obviously anti-gay. It takes a lot of work to try and make it not. Just goes to show how anti-human the Bible really is.

  • slimboyfat

    By coincidence I just posted this on another thread!

    People who take the Bible seriously can always emphasize one part over another, or point out that cultural situations are not equivalent so you can't draw a direct line.

  • cofty

    Efforts to read the bible in any way other than anti-gay require astonishing mental gymnastics.

    Why should we expect anything else from Iron-Age goat herders?

  • slimboyfat

    Because they were perhaps more enlightened than some in the 20th century? Progress has not be linear or consistent on this issue. From Wikipedia:

    In ancient Assyria, homosexuality was present and common; it was also not prohibited, condemned, nor looked upon as immoral or disordered. Some religious texts contain prayers for divine blessings on homosexual relationships.[85][86] The Almanac of Incantations contained prayers favoring on an equal basis the love of a man for a woman, of a woman for a man, and of a man for man.[87]

    In Greater Iran, homosexuality and homoerotic expressions were tolerated in numerous public places, from monasteries and seminaries to taverns, military camps, bathhouses, and coffee houses. In the early Safavid dynasty (1501–1723), male houses of prostitution (amrad khane) were legally recognized and paid taxes.

    Some scholars argue that there are examples of homosexual love in ancient literature, like in the Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh as well as in the Biblical story of David and Jonathan. In the Epic of Gilgamesh, the relationship between the main protagonist Gilgamesh and the character Enkidu has been seen by some to be homosexual in nature.[88][89][90][91] Similarly, David's love for Jonathan is "greater than the love of women."[92]

  • The Rebel
    The Rebel

    Q, by Jws) are gays really condemned in the bible?

    A, by The Rebel) Well I am no scientist, but my reading of the bible going all the way back to Adam the humun race is 12, 000 years old ....hmmmm OK, that's plausible, I am no scientist, but dinosaurs, fossils, ummmmmmm? Well I gues if you believe God put those dinosaur fossils their to text our faith, then you can believe anything the bible says.

    The Rebel.

    p.s .....As far as I am concerned being " Gay" means " Good As You"

  • Saename

    I believe you are right in your conclusion. I won't say that the Bible is against homosexuality as I don't believe that the Bible is inspired of God. As an atheist who studies the New Testament, I believe that the Bible is a collection of books that are different from each other and that were written by authors different from each other.

    Therefore, what I will say is that apostle Paul, when writing the letter to Romans, was against homosexuality. As I study the New Testament, I have to say there is some debate about 1 Cor. 6.9–10. The Greek words used are μαλακοὶ and ἀρσενοκοῖται. People argue different things when it comes to the translations of those words. malakai (the first word), seems to mean "effeminate." The second word, arsenokoites, gets tricky... Boswell argues that it means "male prostitutes," Balley argues that it means "males who practise homosexuality," and Scroggs argues that it means "pederasty." Will the case be settled? Hmm... probably not.

    Now, I won't discuss 1 Timothy as it was probably not written by Paul at all but by one of his followers. Instead, I will go on to comment on Romans 1.26–27.

    When I personally read this passage, I see a clear case of Paul against homosexuality. It's true that Paul says that both women and men "exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature" (ESV), and some individuals (such as Joe Dallas) argue that this verse condemns heterosexuals who practise homosexuality, and thus they act against nature. However, at the same time, you can argue that Paul is calling any homosexual practice as being "contrary to nature." Too bad we can't ask the guy, eh? To me, it seems that Paul condemns homosexuality in general, but it's my personal opinion, with which there are scholars who agree. And then there are also scholars who disagree.

    I guess that's why scholars don't even talk anymore about reconstructing the original New Testament...

  • Crazyguy

    The bible is anti-gay but pro rape so think about that next time your thinking about this wonderful book. Also science has proven that people become gay mostly do to conditions in side the womb during the pregnancy and DNA .

  • The Rebel
    The Rebel

    crazyguy " the bible is anti-gay"

    The Rebel " Well said "crazyguy" now do we need science or religion to " Love All the People?"

    The Rebel.

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