22,000 years of arctic ice cores melt, and wash the YHWH/JESUS concept down the sewer

by fulltimestudent 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • sir82

    The ice core sample thing is what finally obliterated my belief in the flood. Pretty much the rest of the Biblical fairy tales followed suit soon thereafter.

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot


    What scriptural justification is there for concluding that the world is six thousand years old anyways? Are Creationists just summing up the recorded lifetimes of everyone from Adam to Jesus? They do know there are huge gaps, don't they?

    Rainbow, Perry and company use the same logic that the Watchtower does. Any gaps, like the 'Adam and Eve Gap' of the Watchtower, doesn't faze him. It's known as Young Earth Creationism.

    There are old earth creationists who acknowledge the fact that the Earth is older than a mere 6,000 years. Perry is not one of them. He's much closer to the JWs who were inspired by the chronological ju-ju priests of the 19th century.

    There are also many Liberal Christians, and even some Evangelicals, who believe in theistic evolution. Perry is definitely not one of them. And, before Perry goes on an anti-evolution tirade, let me ask him, if he dares to reply: Is belief in old earth creationism or more importantly theistic evolution a salvation issue? Is Perry's fellow worshipper at church doomed to Gehenna if he should believe, God forbid, in theistic evolution?

  • Finkelstein

    A little information about ice core dating

    Perry listen up

    Ice core

    An ice core is a core sample that is typically removed from an ice sheet, most commonly from the polar ice caps of Antarctica, Greenland or from high mountain glaciers elsewhere. As the ice forms from the incremental buildup of annual layers of snow, lower layers are older than upper, and an ice core contains ice formed over a range of years. The properties of the ice and the recrystallized[clarification needed] inclusions within the ice can then be used to reconstruct a climatic record over the age range of the core, normally through isotopic analysis. This enables the reconstruction of local temperature records and the history of atmospheric composition.[1]

    Ice cores contain an abundance of information about climate. Inclusions in the snow of each year remain in the ice, such as wind-blown dust, ash, pollen, bubbles of atmospheric gas and radioactive substances. The variety of climatic proxies is greater than in any other natural recorder of climate, such as tree rings or sediment layers. These include (proxies for) temperature, ocean volume, precipitation, chemistry and gas composition of the lower atmosphere, volcanic eruptions, solar variability, sea-surface productivity, desert extent and forest fires.

    The length of the record depends on the depth of the ice core and varies from a few years up to 800 kyr (800,000 years) for the EPICA core. The time resolution (i.e. the shortest time period which can be accurately distinguished) depends on the amount of annual snowfall, and reduces with depth as the ice compacts under the weight of layers accumulating on top of it. Upper layers of ice in a core correspond to a single year or sometimes a single season. Deeper into the ice the layers thin and annual layers become indistinguishable.

    An ice core from the right site can be used to reconstruct an uninterrupted and detailed climate record extending over hundreds of thousands of years, providing information on a wide variety of aspects of climate at each point in time. It is the simultaneity of these properties recorded in the ice that makes ice cores such a powerful tool in paleoclimate research.

    So you can see that that ice core samples retrieved from that plane cash, the scientists were able the use the yearly scale calculation because it was recent enough in historical occurrence.

  • jwstudy

    I've already researched a lot about the ice core records.

    And I found It's dating is very much accurate.

    There is no room for bias counting date because of several independent dating strategies.

    You can synchronize it with volcanic ash layer. And the counting method is not only by visual layer but also by using "stable isotope data" at least 8,000 plus years records.


    Young Earth Creationists claims are fraudulent.

    For example, Larry Vardiman mention about "P-38 Lightning fighters trapped under an estimated 250 feet of ice for almost 50 years" below.


    But, Larry Vardiman did not mention about how much snow accumulate at crash site.

    You can see where the crash site is from this video.


    There are much snow fall in south east coast area of greenland. And "250 feet of ice for almost 50 years" is quite normal and expected level for its crash site.

    You can see how snow fall levels are different depend on the site.


    If you must compare the crash site with icecore site. It must be DYE-3 Greenland or "Law Dome" Antarctica.

    Young earth creationist like Larry Vardiman never present the real truth. But they present the deluded truth of the Bible.

  • Finkelstein

    Young earth creationist like Larry Vardiman never present the real truth.

    Yes another case of creationists (Perry) being intellectually dishonest.

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot


    Yes another case of creationists (Perry) being intellectually dishonest.

    Creationists indulge in what psychologists call confirmatory bias. You wouldn't catch them doing a real investigation looking at both sides of the issue. As the author Stephen Covey once said: "Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply."

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot

    Science and Earth History: The Evolution/Creation Controversy is a 500 page encyclopedia of Creationist folklore and their thorough scientific rebuttals. Well worth the price. Highly recommended for the Perry's of this world.


  • steve2

    I do hope Perry at least reads the above posts - he tends to reiterate what is written on creationist websites which superficially create the impression that ice core dating is unstable. But, ultimately, guys, if you haven't realized by now, Perry tends to run with a simplistic take on a topic and seldom delves deeper to see that simplistic and nonsense are often very satisfied bedfellows.

  • Half banana
    Half banana

    We have, or rather scientists have a very good record of past climate data going back a couple of million years.

    Our best clues are from the pattern of climate change which has occurred during the present Holocene as a continuation of the Pleistoscene geological periods. Snow buried WW2 aircraft are no help whatsoever in determining the overall scientifically determined pattern of climate oscillations.

    It was the Swiss researcher Louis Agassiz who first determined that there had been an ice age back in the middle of the 19th century. This despite the popular certainty that there had been a global flood. He showed evidence for his hypothesis which eventually was accepted. Later researchers showed that there was not just one ice age but four ice ages, this early 20th century idea also had evidence but it was the deep sea sediment cores from the Pacific mainly, which told the whole story. Arctic ice core information amongst others corroborated the sediment cores.

    By the end of the 1980s, earth science had all the data to show the slow 'tide' of ice advance and retreat over the polar regions was due to the relative positions of the Earth and sun in their periodic changes of position. They 'wobble' with a periodicity having maximum effect relative to the amount of incoming solar radiation from max. to min. during an epoch of just over 100,000 years.

    This last climate minimum (full on ice age) was between 20,000 to 18,000 years ago followed by global warming and pluvial period up to the present interglacial maximum which has been around for ten thousand years and might last another ten to fifteen thousand years.

    The evidence for climate history is built up from dozens of types of sources in hundreds of thousands of locations. The faunal assemblages, the floral, the insects, the pollen, river life, river and lake deposits (varves), yes ice cores and dozens of types of other more esoteric data all add up to a real knowledge of what climate existed in the past.

    There is not the slightest evidence that the Biblical flood could have ever happened but there is evidence to the contrary that it did not happen.

  • notjustyet

    This was like only 160 or so years ago. Wouldn't there be some evidence if we had an ice age so recently?

    It was the Swiss researcher Louis Agassiz who first determined that there had been an ice age back in the middle of the 19th century.

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