by EdenOne 95 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
sanchy: Really? Ok, I won't doubt your words, as I don't know you or your circumstances.
You are right - you don't know.
Think if your JW sister/brother/son/daughter were in Russia.
I do have family in Russia. Close family - cousins and aunties and uncles...lots of them. Blood relatives. I think of them all the time. Always have (edit to add - none of my relatives in Russia are JWs)
vidiot: I do get a kick out of the Russian media calling JWs "Jehovists"...
Me too. :)
sanchy: But here's what no one has been able to argue against:
-Since when have government bans been effective in stopping JWs from promoting their message? Specially when there is an already existing thriving JW community within the country. They only have a contrary effect. Look at authoritarian government history and see how clandestine JW communities have only been reinforced in their belief.
-Taking into account the first point...
Okay...I will take that first point into account.
Governments ban all sorts of behavior. All the time.
For example, murder is banned. So is rape. So is theft...the list goes on and on.
And, you are right...government bans do not stop illegal activity from happening - but it does give the government the power to prosecute such illegal acts.
Government bans exist to enforce laws. JWs do not respect the law - the only law they recognize is the one that comes from the Boys at Brooklyn...oops...I guess that is Warwick, now. New York. Amuricah. Nevertheless, the JW 'law' is not the law of the people.
However, to say that ALL JWs refuse blood because of fear of discipline is simply not true. You can't paint all with a such a broad brush.
I never claimed all JW refuse blood because they fear the fallout l, and that is not the point either. My point is: (1) the Org is pressuring people into refusing blood, and that should be stopped.
(2) The JW's who would have refused blood even if the Org would say you can accept it, are still free to do so if the Organization's no longer exists (as long as they don't pressure others to do the same).
I assume you can agree with both of these points.
Since when have government bans been effective in stopping JWs from promoting their message?
Taking out one crime boss will only make the next one take his place. Yet we fight crime anyway. So why is this relevant?
In my opinion bans in this information age might very well have a different effect than they had decades ago.
Anyway, if a ban is not the answer, what is? Educating the people about JW? I think education should complement the ban, but it will also be perceived as persecution and Satanic influence.
Would you propose governments ignore all extremist groups instead?
They will possibly face real pain. Persecution, possible jail time, public humiliation and ridicule, beatings, constant searches and scrutiny from the authorities
I don't think anyone here advocates beatings, humiliation and ridicule from the government. We're discussing a ban on specific literature and a legal entity here. For the sake of discussion, assume this ban would be in place in a bit more civilized country like France or Germany.
If you break the law, for religious reasons or not, the consequences are there.
Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, even in Russia. Is it so hard to worship your God without a specific forbidden magazine issue or book? Do you really have to preach that everyone but JW will be killed or that you should not answer the phone when your ex-JW daughter calls?
Now I do see there is an issue in Russia. They are not very good with human rights. Apparently they are trying to get rid of any non-orthodox religions.
There is a thin line between trying to fight extremism and stepping on the rights of non-orthodox or non-traditional groups or individuals.
We can agree this is not an easy case either way.
Sanchy,
You continue to let your emotions lead and drive you into typing nonsense into your keyboard and onto this site.
Several Muslim countries have made it illegal to proselytize x-tianity for decades. Penalties in the past included losing your life if you violated. The results of these laws have been very effective. How many dubs are in Saudi Arabia? Kuwait? Yemen?
Are you incapable of rational thought and expression that is absent hysteria???
The Russian laws are intended to address organized groups, as Anders and others, including me, have stated on several occasions. Individual dubs are free to be dubs - they just have to comply with the law or suffer the consequences on an individual basis as the legal system determines. The organization is a different matter. Why are you having so much trouble separating these?
In the US you can believe anything you wish to believe politically; you can even believe that the government should be overthrown, for example, and you will likely be left alone. If you organize and try to spread those beliefs or engage in activities wherein the government has a right to view your group as a threat - and one not protected by either the law or the constitution - they can arrest you.
Case in point. Several white separatist groups exist in the US. The government watches them closely, but they have for decades operated unscathed for the most part. Some even have enclaves in Idaho and other states where the birds of a feather have flocked together in like minded mistrust of the guv'ment. And they are for the most part left alone.
When they begin spreading those teachings outside their enclave or start acting in an overtly threatening manner, they are raided, killed and their leaders carted off to jail. Their leaders know this and have for decades managed to operate below the radar for the most part. That's all the Dark Lords really have to do; their ego and narcissism won't allow them to do it, and the rank and file become unwilling pawns in their sick ego driven game.
Now, copy and paste this to Russia and their extremist laws, which actually are much closer to laws in the US laws and practices than you think. The only difference is the US has built a ridiculous wall around religion, making people like you think you have rights that you don't actually have. Those walls are beginning to fall.
Anders explained it well. Two wrongs don't make a right, but you have failed to adequately identify anything the Russian courts have done that is wrong. Hurting your feelings or violating your own sense of justice doesn't count.
DJS, you are so deluded, arrogant and ignorant that I don't even know where to begin debating the non-sense that you just wrote. I'll try to put it in real simple terms for you to see if I can slip some common sense into that head of yours:
A) Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Yemen are great examples of the role of government and the respect of human rights (.. right! good going there)
B) "The organization is a different matter. Why are you having so much trouble separating these?" Are you kidding me? You have demonstrated zero ability to think beyond the capacity of a child. An organization consist of members, as individuals acting collectively. When a JW goes to jail in Russia or another oppressive regime, they are suffering as individuals.
C) JW in no shape, manner or form resemble in nature, intent or extremes white separatist groups intent in causing violence. You cannot compare JWs to such violent groups as Jihadist Terrorists or White extremists.
Other than that the rest of the drivel you spewed is not even worth touching.
I used the separatist groups as an example of believing something and acting on it. Geesh, Sanchy.
Get control of your emotions and try to comment based on rational analysis of the situation. Two wrongs don't make a right? You have failed to provide one single shred of evidence where the Russian law is wrong or anything else they have done.
Laws aren't effective? Complete and utter bull shit and nothing but a Libertarian mantra. There is a reason the Libertarian presidential candidate, who shines as a hometown hero in the back hills of KY or BFE, immediately crashes and burns when they enter the national spotlight.
The DarkLords knew of this law since 2002. There is nothing wrong with this law. The Russian courts have been patient. The dubs have not been singled out, regardless of what you want to feel. The charges against them were explained by me early in this OP. They are real and verifiable. Your imaginary court that exists solely between your L ear and your R ear can adjudicate this as long as you wish, but the reality of this issue is that the Russian law is fair, the DarkLords repeatedly violated it, the courts were patient, and the recent charges are valid and verifiable.
Those are the facts and they are indisputable. Your incessant whining about it is tiring. I would dearly love this world court (in your mind) to convene and let GB member Jackson, fresh from his ass kicking in Australia at the RC hearings, try to convince ANYONE that the Dark Tower deserves their empathy.
There were likely thousands of dubs and ex-dubs who would have lined up to testify against Jackson and the Dark Tower in Aus. over the child abuse issue. How many do you think would line up to testify against the Dark Tower and in support of the Russian Supreme Court agreeing with gov. prosecutors that the DarkLords teachings and actions:
Destroy young lives through coerced baptism at a very early age
Destroy young lives through coerced avoidance of life saving medical assistance.
Destroy families with their evil shunning policy
There would be millions of ex-dubs and current dubs who would support Russia's decisions at this world court in your mind. Millions. I would be one of them.
These are the facts and they are undisputed.
Now stop your incessant whining. Or not. The more you type nonsense into the keyboard the more clear you make this issue to lurkers and the more ridiculous you become.
sanchy: An organization consist of members, as individuals acting collectively.
And therein lies the problem. The organization known as the Watchtower Society, which oversees the organization known as the JWs, is not a collection of individuals acting collectively.
The JWs may have the appearance of a collective unit, but the rules that govern that collective behavior are not arrived at by a collective decision.
There are no collective acts in the establishment of what makes up JW 'law'. Even tho people can be individual members, the members themselves do not have input into the directives that control their lives.
Some organizations "consist of members, as individuals acting collectively" but the Watchtower Society is not one of them.
Even tho people can be individual members, the members themselves do not have input into the directives that control their lives.I will point out that, unless were talking about children, people choose to be JWs in the first place, and in doing so, they willfully abdicate all/most of their self-direction.
Adults have the right to do this.
hybridous:
"Even tho people can be individual members, the members themselves do not have input into the directives that control their lives."
I will point out that, unless were talking about children, people choose to be JWs in the first place, and in doing so, they willfully abdicate all/most of their self-direction.
Adults have the right to do this.
You are absolutely right.
Exactly the same as a woman can legally marry an abusive man. However, if that man is violent and hurts her, it doesn't excuse his behavior just because she married him.
You have stated the "blame the victim" mantra quite well.
