Speaking of the Flood... Does the Earth Move?

by kepler 8 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • kepler
    kepler

    Just read over the long thread about a letter to HQ regarding Noah's Flood. Reminded of another literal litmus test. Within 7 years of beginning telescopic observations of the heavens, Galileo was called to judgment by the Inquisition in 1616. Disputes in this case abound, but the Biblical arguments for which Galileo was tried and condemned "revolved" around I Chronicles 16:30, Psalms 93:1, 96:10, 104.5 and Ecclesiastes 1:5, summarized by "The world is established; it shall never be moved." Plus, "The sun rises and the goes down and hastens to where it rises." Elders believe this, don't they? After all, it is clearly written. Furthermore, we have the notable divine intervention following the battle against the five kings of Makkedah in which the Amorites found no surcease since Joshua said "Sun, stand still over Giberon, and moon, you too over the Vale of Aijalon... "Is that not written in the Book of the Just?" circa Joshua 10:13.

    Galileo officially recanted his views. According to legend, it is claimed that he said otherwise under his breath. But the fact is, the text over which the dispute arose is not ambiguous. And that's the problem.

    For in the case of ordering the sun and moon to stand still, most of their observed motion is based on that of the earth. The earth revolves; not the sun. And the apparent motion of the moon is largely that of the Earth's as well. I do not recall any mention in the Bible that either orb moves in the celestial sphere, disregarding whether the Earth is in motion or not. That information evidently was provided by other peoples. But the notion that the sun hastens under the ground to rise at its appointed hour is all wrong. At least to the modern perspective.

    It is possible to split hairs and say that motion in space is relative. It's a matter of explaining the source of motion - and ancient peoples around the Mediterranean did not adhere to Newtonian or Relativistic principles of physics. There were no known forces acting at a distance such as Newton proposed - and Einstein later denied. Yet even though Einstein removes gravitational force as a mechanism for particle motion in the universe, Newton and Einstein still agree that interaction of bodies cause accelerations inversely proportional to their masses and contribute to their consequent velocities. I would not argue that God is unaware of that observed relation about the cosmos which we attribute to God's agency, but there is still that sticky problem of what is presumed in the collected works contemplating all this.

    In an argument about literal interpretation, I brought up this matter, and my opposite, unaware of the particulars of the Galileo history, claimed that, of course the Earth moves and that these text passages did not suggest otherwise.

    And, in heat of argument, that I was an atheist to suggest otherwise.

    I don't think the literalists can have it both ways. 

    So the next time you have a debate about whether the literal word is true (e.g., such as a world-wide flood) try examining this issue too. 

     

  • AmIright
    AmIright
    all hail gravity and the god particle :) for now stick with science on this subject as it is. If you choose to believe what the bible says on motion movement of the stars etc you are no different than the bastards who forced the dark ages on us!
  • prologos
    prologos

    kepler; ' --For in the case of ordering the sun and moon to stand still, most of their observed motion is based on that of the earth. The earth revolves; not the sun.

    do I read right? does not the rising , setting of the sun depend on the daily rotation of the earth and not it's yearly revolving? except for one sidereal day?

    you are right;-- "god" did not proof-read the bible. 

  • kepler
    kepler

    Prologos,

    I see what you are saying. But I believe you can both that the Earth revolves/rotates about its axis. And it also rotates/revolves about the sun. At least I meant as much.

    My dictionary's "rotation" definition was rather non-committal, but on "revolve" it says:

    "to spin around about an axis".

    Also, revolution as "the movement of a planet around the sun or any celestial body around a center of attraction", "rotation about an axis..."

    I should add that the center of attraction between the Earth and moon is near the Earth's surface due to the ratio of their masses, about 81 to 1 in Earth's favor and separation distance of about 59 earth radii.

    Were we to bring this up with the Author and if there were to be a reply, most likely: "I am aware of that."

  • prologos
    prologos

    kepler; I brought this up, because It is quite possible that many jws would not realize that to have the sun stand still, the rotation of the earth would have to stop, and start up again. and you are right, --like the moon, der/ elle/ it revolves around the barycenter, but rotates once a month around its own axis at the same time.

    In astronomy there is a distinction between rotation (spin) and revolution (orbit) path. , in mechanics, the motor revs per minute, the orbit is the lap around the track. k"I am aware of that." of course you are, but for the readers to see how irrational the bible is to have such ideas as "TRUTH" , I nit-picked away.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    kepler - "...does the Earth move?"

    Yes.

    Like every other planet.

    Astronomy 101.

  • Anders Andersen
    Anders Andersen

    Yeah well...If a parable question (Who is really the faithful and discreet slave?) must be read as a literal fact, and the next sentence (...if that evil slave...) is clearly figurative, anything goes.

    Fact is that never did the Bible show us anything scientific correct.

    While science progressed, interpretations of Bible myth were changed to support scientific discoveries so religious people didn't look too stupid (some do anyway).

    Looking back we can say: look, the Bible already said so. But the Bible never said it clear enough to state the facts correctly before the scientific discovery of such facts.

    Just like prophecies can only be matched to a fullfilment after the supposedly predicted event.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Good points Anders, if the Bible were really the word of god you would expect at least a basic knowledge of how things in the World and the Universe really are, to be evident in the writings of the "inspired" authors.

    The sad fact is that even when Pagan nations round about had produced guys who explained the true value of Pi, and explained that the Earth was a Sphere , and worked out its circumference very nearly 100% correctly, the Bible writers were jogging along with the Earth being a flat plate, and no true idea as to Pi.

    And, there is not one Bible "prophecy" that was fulfilled as the "prophecy" said it would be !

    I think this comes under the heading of " Epic Fail".

  • kepler
    kepler

    Vidiot,

    "Yes, like any other planet. See Astronomy 101."

    But let's examine the vintage of that course. For much of the 17th century and most of the time before this was not so. Ptolemy's textbook explained how it was otherwise. And I don't recall any Biblical references within. He was arguing based on an elaborate geometry - which did not then have the good fortune of introducing the phases of Venus into the argument. Jupiter's satellites, the Moon's imperfections such as craters and mountains and Copernican theory pointed in the direction... my on-line namesake was publishing at about the same time...

    But phases of Venus were key to the argument.

    Subsequently, transits of Venus were observed carefully by Jesuit astronomers...

    When you read histories of astronomy in the 1500s and 1600s, it becomes very much tied up with the Reformations Protestant and Catholic with Copernicans and their opponents on both sides. However, since the ball of Fundamentalist thread in religious thinking was carried by reformers such as Luther and Calvin, in present day terms it would seem ironic that the Papacy and its Inquisition would stand as the defenders of Biblical inerrancy. Protestant circles tend to be self congratulatory about Galileo. Really? Why?

    It wasn't Galileo that got burned on this, but even centuries later not all schools of thought learned from this either.

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