Mohammed, Christ, Mother Teresa, and Voltaire

by XJWBill 6 Replies latest jw friends

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  XJWBill

  "Muhammed is my savior" is a very interesting thread, and I'd like to get my two cents in, but am starting a new thread since the first has gotten so long already.

  First off, let me say that I can't bring myself to criticize the personal beliefs of any ex-Witness; I remember only too well the sense of relief-from-imprisonment I felt after I walked away. For a long time afterwards, I was, at best, agnostic and open to lots of religious and spiritual ideas that I would never have entertained before. It was sort of a pendulum effect: I grew my hair down to my shoulders, took up cigarettes, and listening to hard rock. (I've since given up 2 of the 3!)

  My guess is that most of us go through that slingshot experience once we're free, and all of us on this board are at various stages in that arc. The nice thing is that now we get to choose where we land, and what our trajectory is!

  However, in my own case, I eventually came to see that though the "world" has its delights, I needed more than a materialistic explanation of life and its meaning. To make a very long story very short, after much prayer and soul-searching, I was drawn to the Episcopal Church, and I am pretty happy being there.

  So what about "unbelievers"? I am content to rest in the thought that God will take care of them, and delighted that I DON'T HAVE TO MAKE THAT JUDGMENT. Just as I don't have to decide which of my Christian brothers and sisters goes to heaven or that other place. (And very glad that none of them gets to stamp MY ticket at boarding time!!)

  I'm sorry to say that in my years away from the WTBTS, I've forgotten a lot of chapters and verses. But I think that in the book of Acts, St. Paul, speaking to the heathen Athenians, makes the statement that "in every nation, the man who works righteousness is acceptable
  to God." So non-Christians can be "saved."

  I think in Romans, Paul also states that "all Israel will be saved." So the Jewish folks can go to Heaven, too.

  And of course we've all read John 3:16--where it implies (to my limited mind, anyway) that God loves the whole world of mankind--
  enough to die for them all. So His love is big enough to cover the whole human race. He is our Father--loving, merciful, and understanding.

  I believe, and devoutly so, that Christ is the fullest revelation of God. But I also believe that other religions contain glimmers of the same truth Jesus taught about the nature of God and the purpose of life.

  I remember watching the funeral of Mother Teresa on TV and being struck by this phenomenon: as the leaders of a dozen or more different Indian religions all came up to say a few words of eulogy, to my ears EVERY ONE of them seemed to be saying the same thing, namely, "Even though this woman was not of our faith, she lived her life according to our most important beliefs, loving her neighbors, helping the poor and outcast, doing good to everyone, and sacrificing herself for the betterment of others." (Compare Matthew 24.)

  This tells me that the Golden Rule, or the two great commandments that Christ taught, are the essence of what God--everybody's God--expects of us. And I think we all, Christian, Jew, Moslem, Hindu, whatever, will be judged according to the light that was given us in this life.

  As C. S. Lewis says somewhere, paraphrased, "the Bible tells us that
  men can only be saved by Christ, but it does not say that only those who know Christ can be saved by Him."

  As for Voltaire's reaction to the Lisbon earthquake, I could add that here in the South, I have noted not once but several times over the years news accounts of tornados destroying churches and killing people during Sunday morning worship. This brings up the age-old question of why bad things happen to good people. I think the answer is that God made the universe dependent on physical causes, and time and chance are allowed to have their effects, for good or bad. Our faith is not merely for physical survival, but for that eternal city to come. (See C. S. Lewis, "The Problem of Pain.")

  Voltaire did not think this a satisfactory answer. But notice that the atheistic, materialistic alternative is not very satisfying, either! If there is no God, no Heaven, no remedy to the ills of this life, well . . . . that thought leads quickly to despair.

  I have to fall back on St. Augustine's words: "What faith is meant to do is to help good people, not to escape their sufferings, but to bear them with a stout heart, with the fortitude that comes through faith." More than that, I think no religion or world-view can offer.

  Just my thoughts--feel free to disagree, all you ex-bro's and sisters!

  Bill

  "If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)
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  GinnyTosken

  Hi, XJWBill,

  We have threads that go for 4 and 5 pages sometimes, so never fear adding to a long one. Since topics move down the board so quickly, I usually check the option to be notified by e-mail whenever someone replies to a thread in which I'm interested. I nearly missed your post here because it wasn't part of the original thread.

  I agree that many religions share the same basic values. A book that I very much enjoyed after leaving the WTS was Oneness: Great Principles Shared by All Religions by Jeffrey Moses.

  Your warmth and caring comes through in your interpreting the Bible to mean that everyone will have a chance to be saved. However, I disagree with your view that an atheistic view is necessarily a materialistic one. A lot hinges on what you mean by "materialistic." I am thinking of it in old JW terms--people obsessed with making money, accumulating possessions, and with little regard for fellow man.

  Being an atheist or agnostic does not automatically make such a person materialistic. Materialism is not the only alternative to belief in God. Some of the least materialistic writing I have read lately has been by people who opt for simple living, as described in books such as Simple Living by Janet Luhrs or Your Money or Your Life by Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin. God and religion are not mentioned in these books, but a mindful spirituality runs deep, as does concern for one's fellow man and the environment.

  You also said:
  

  Voltaire did not think this a satisfactory answer. But notice that the atheistic, materialistic alternative is not very satisfying, either! If there is no God, no Heaven, no remedy to the ills of this life, well . . . . that thought leads quickly to despair.

  This is a matter of opinion. I consider myself an agnostic rather than atheist, and I am happier than I have been for many years. Before I viewed my life now as something that had to be endured until I received a future reward. Now I try to be mindful in each moment, savoring life's experiences as they come. I have no way of being sure that there is life after death. Knowing that my time may be limited gives me the impetus to do what I can, here and now, to make a difference.

  Granted, I did feel some despair when I first began thinking of the possibility that there was no heaven, no God, no remedy to the ills of this life. It was much easier to imagine that God would tidy things up eventually. Perhaps he may. Until then, I plan to do what I can to make the world a better place. I also realize that I had a tendency to focus on the ills in this world and missed much of the good. It's rather like a religious experience--once blind, now I see.

  Ginny

  Imagine there's no heaven
  It's easy if you try
  No hell below us
  Above us only sky
  Imagine all the people
  Living for today...

  Imagine there's no countries
  It isn't hard to do
  Nothing to kill or die for
  And no religion too
  Imagine all the people
  Living life in peace...

  You may say I'm a dreamer
  But I'm not the only one
  I hope someday you'll join us
  And the world will be as one
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  XJWBill

  Hi Ginny,

  Thanks for your post. To clarify, I meant "materialistic" in the physical way--the view that this world, this cosmos made of matter and energy, atoms and photons, is simply all there is.

  I can certainly appreciate your agnostic point of view. It appealed to me for a long time, as I said in my first post. The great mathematician, Lord Bertrand Russell, wrote a stirring essay with somewhat the same viewpoint, entitled "Why I Am an Atheist," which presents a heroic view of mankind triumphant and unafraid in the midst of a lonely universe.

  However, that position requires more strength than I have. I need to believe that there is some Power greater than myself, some Good greater than all the evil I see, some Place where "all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well" (St. Julian of Norwich). I am, confessedly, made of too weak a stuff to face the cold, uncaring universe alone and uncomforted.

  Happiness in this life is too often a hit-or-miss thing; survival of the fittest is all well and good, but suppose I am not very fit? What then?

  Then, too, all of my family are dead now, and I miss them terribly. I cannot bring myself to believe that we will never meet again. It is a great comfort to believe--to know--that they are safe and happy in that "land of light and joy" where there are "pleasures forevermore." (Book of Common Prayer)

  As a Christian, I will go so far as to say that I *might* be wrong about all this--but nevertheless, I am willing to take Pascal's wager.
  One day, I--we--will all know for sure.

  In the meantime, as you suggested, the world is a big, beautiful place--and I believe "the happy God" wants us to enjoy and tend to it while we are here. Peace and good wishes to you, Ginny!

  Bill

  "If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)
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  larc

  Pascal's wager is:

  Do good. It is a win-win proposition. If there is no life after this one, you will have a good life here by being a good person. If there is an afterlife - surprise - that will be good too. I don't brood or stew about it. I just try to enjoy each day, make the most of it, and try not to hurt anybody.

  People who are obsessed with the past or the future miss out on the present moment of joy. (That is not a quote from somebody. I made that up just now. Maybe I am inspired.)
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  Francois

  You said, in your quite wonderful post, "I believe, and devoutly so, that Christ is the fullest revelation of God. But I also believe that other religions contain glimmers of the same truth Jesus taught about the nature of God and the purpose of life."

  I've noticed that myself. In fact, in the Tao Te Ching, written 600 years before Christ, Lao Tzu expresses sentiments that are exactly, not close, but exactly, those of Christ in the sermon on the mount.

  Jesus came to illuminate a better way. It wasn't necessarily that no one knew this Way prior to him; he was to make this Way more clear. It's obvious that Lao Tzu and others in the East knew about the Way, and had known it for centuries. Thus we run a real risk, sitting in judgement of the religions of others - even JWs.

  Each one of us has the right (and obligation) to step to the drummer we hear. And while it's deplorable that the JWs take what small glimmering they have of spiritual reality and use it to condemn all who disagree with their quaint interpretations, it's probably better for us to regard them as would a Ph.D. in mathematics regard little children in the first grade just learning to count. Aren't they so cute? Just learning to count? And so proud of themselves!

  Of course, this is hard to do when you witness the Witnesses causing so much pain with their partial knowledge, false prophesy, condemnation, and lies. I guess that first grade analogy only goes for far, huh?

  Francoise
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  XJWBill

  Well said, Francoise! I think we're on the same wavelength here.

  Being a JW was good for me--in many ways--at that time. "But now that I am a man, I have left off childish things."

  :-) Peace,

  Bill

  "If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)
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  GinnyTosken

  Bill,

  I must say, it is refreshing to read your answer. You explain beautifully why you choose to believe, and I can well respect your choice as you respect mine. You are one of the few Christians I have met who understand the true meaning of belief and faith.

  Thank you, too, for explaining your definition of "materialistic." I would venture to say that not believing in God and believing that "this cosmos made of matter and energy, atoms and photons, is simply all there is" are two separate issues. There is still much we don't understand and don't know.

  Survival of the fittest isn't always the way things go. Sometimes small contingencies make a big difference. For example, the QWERTY keyboards we use certainly aren't the fittest, nor is English the most consistent or fittest language. Small contingencies have led to their common use.

  I respect you tremendously for not trying to dodge difficult questions. You have considered them and have chosen a belief that gives you comfort. I wish you the best.

  Ginny