The challenge of " truth" and " moral opinion"

by The Rebel 6 Replies latest jw friends

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  The Rebel

  When growing up in a "proper" J.ws household:-

  A) Our moral opinions are conditioned by this environment and upbringing.
  

  B) To hold to Jws belief and moral opinions gives our life purpose.

  C) What we believe we hold it to be true.

  D) In terms of approval it can be difficult for the mind to accept logical evidence if our life is based on "truth" and " moral opinions" that conflict with our conscience.

  Anyway I am not sure where I am going with this O.P?

  I guess my point is that settling factual and logical disputes with Jws has proven more challenging than I realized. In order to explain this I illustrated my point with those born in . But the same argument can be used on any convert of a belief or moral system.

  This brings me back to my O.P " The challenge of " truth" and " moral opinion" and by so doing I hope it leads to greater understanding of why debating with some posters can be futile.

  My conclusion is it is not always that a poster is deliberately argumentative, when they fail to offer convincing reasons to justify a belief or moral opinion. The trick is to know when we are not going to convince someone on the validity of our argument.
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  smiddy

  Jehovahs Witnesses are conditioned to believe morals are only bible based and if you leave the religion you lose your moral value.

  This is absolute bullshit. the bible /religion has nothing to do with how moral people are.

  The proof of this is in the millions of ex JW`s around the world who havent degenerated into a moral vacuum where anything and everything goes as the religion would have you believe.

  Its just another lie they tell

  Also the world is full of moral people who do not subscribe to any religious belief.

  Did i understand correctly your OP ? The rebel
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  The Rebel

  Hi Smiddy,

  Smiddy :- "did I understand correctly your O.P?

  The Rebel. I don't think you did?

  My point is JWs morals are often based on what they believe is correct. Therefore their attitude and feelings to life are dictated by this belief. What they believe as good I believe to be bad. This is because I now have a totally different moral compass to when I was a witness. But trying to reason my moral disagreement with a witness is often futile, because we believe a different truth and therefore have different morals.

  However my O.P was to :-

  A) highlight that whilst I judge JWs as having a low moral standard, I can also sympathize how the indoctrination process has clouded their judgement.

  B) When I trying reasoning with people and to change what I perceive as incorrect " truth" and " morals" I can understand why I am met with limited success. Culture, religion and various other factors can cloud a persons thinking.
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  The Rebel

  I find it very sad that a parent can say to a son/ daughter who is disfellowshipped:-

  " look how much we sacrificed for you, when you were young, now you have forced us to shun you"

  In my opinion a parent should always say :-

  " You did what you feel right. We do and will always love you. We can not shun you"

  However if a son/daughter is shunned by parents, they may find it hard to honestly say to a parent " You have done what you feel right, shun me, but I will always love you"

  So too clarify my O.P. I am trying:-

  A) To understand the factors that make people believe things.

  B) To understand how a belief system can influence people to do things I think immoral.

  And most importantly, self examination:-

  C) In what circumstances am i still capable of living with " false" knowledge that will cloud my " moral attitude?

  And my conclusion is we are all challenged in life. We will all believe " false" knowledge and we all do things " immoral" even to our own standards.
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  scratchme1010

  I guess my point is that settling factual and logical disputes with Jws has proven more challenging than I realized. In order to explain this I illustrated my point with those born in . But the same argument can be used on any convert of a belief or moral system.
  

  Yes, reasoning with facts is the one thing that brainwashing takes away. I have posted in other threads about how one can get a better result when you address their feelings, not what they reason. People cannot join an organization based on reasoning that they have not yet learned. What makes them join and stay is what the Wt makes the feel, being that comfort, hope, a sense of certainty, etc. If you argue that instead of what the bible says in some of its books, I'm sure you may get a better/stronger reaction.

  My conclusion is it is not always that a poster is deliberately argumentative, when they fail to offer convincing reasons to justify a belief or moral opinion. The trick is to know when we are not going to convince someone on the validity of our argument
  

  Looking from a knowledge-only perspective, absolutely. The "argumentative" part comes from them defending the thing that to them represents important life changing decisions that they have made. A person cannot automatically say "Sure, you're right. My son died because we didn't have him get a transfusion, I never pursued any financial goal, career aspiration, and had to marry this passive/aggressive ____ out of pressure from my congregation peers, and I have dedicated all my life and made all my important life decisions around what I argue, but no problem. You're right; I'll just make a change in believe system and life changing decision making because of what you just showed me". That cannot happen. What they defend is what they feel, not what they know.
  
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  OUTLAW

  I guess my point is that settling factual and logical disputes with Jws has proven more challenging than I realized.

  JW`s are obsessed with and take comfort in, being right..

  Truth is not a high priority for them..
  
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  xjwsrock

  Your post made me think that as JW's we used the organization as due north on our moral compass. Basically what they said and did was right and what they preached against was wrong. We didn't really have our own morals. We adopted the morals we were told to.

  In other words when you try to appeal to a JW's morals by pointing out flaws in the organization, you are actually attacking the JW's morals. They can't separate the two. Maybe on some level they start to short circuit. Whatever happens it gets personal quick and can even get violent. It's very sad to observe.

  ........

  I think there's a breaking of the camel's back that has to happen for somebody to get out and you never know when that will be. Until then they are practically robots.