True Bible doctrines part 4

by hooberus 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    The title Son of God means having the same nature as God.

    The Son of the Father is equal to God.

    But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:17-18

    (note: the last part of the sentence is John's words not just a recording of the opinion of the Jews)

    Jesus' claim to be the Son of God was a claim to the nature of God.

    I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. John 10:30-33

    The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. John 19:7

  • rocketman
    rocketman

    Certainly good food for thought Hooberus.

    John seems to be the one commenting at John 5:18, and though he could perhaps be making his comment in a way that is expressing the viewopint of the Pharisees who opposed Jesus, the verse seems more easily understood as John adding a comment of his own which reflects his own view.

    However, Jesus is also accused of 'breaking the Sabbath'. Certainly, in the view of the Pharisees, he was a Sabbath-breaker. But was he really breaking the Sabbath? I don't think he was, and thus here John does indeed seem to be comenting from their view rather than his own. It may stand to reason then that he is doing the same thing at the end of verse 18.

    As far as John 10:30-33 is concerned, Jesus, in verse 34, points to the Psalm (82:6) that says that even certain men are called gods, and then asks: "say ye of him, whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" So Jesus in effect is questioning how one can be blaspheming by saying he is the Son of God, when in fact even some men are called gods.

    Of course, looking at John 10:38 in the ASV, Jesus says: "that ye may know that I am in the Father and I in the Father". So I'm kind of divided on this set of verses as to their meaning.

    I could be wrong, of course, and all I have at my disposal right now is my ASVersion of the Bible. So I am just taking a shot at it by reading the verses. Good post - and I hope you get more comments. In the meantime I will try to research some online commentaries.

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Hoob,

    Good points but I wouldn't call them doctrine.

    There are several way these texts can be understood. But, I feel they point to the Son actually being God in human form. A very intimate sign of LOVE for us from God.

    I also won't rule out that countless times the "Son" of God has appeared to other inteligent life in other forms than what we are use to.

  • rocketman
    rocketman

    Reading some commentaries on John chapter 10 at www.bibleclassics.com, the commentaries seem to run in favor of Jesus' implying that he and God are of essentially the same essence.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    rocketman said: John seems to be the one commenting at John 5:18, and though he could perhaps be making his comment in a way that is expressing the viewopint of the Pharisees who opposed Jesus, the verse seems more easily understood as John adding a comment of his own which reflects his own view.

    However, Jesus is also accused of 'breaking the Sabbath'. Certainly, in the view of the Pharisees, he was a Sabbath-breaker. But was he really breaking the Sabbath? I don't think he was, and thus here John does indeed seem to be comenting from their view rather than his own. It may stand to reason then that he is doing the same thing at the end of verse 18.

    Jeremiah Chapter 17

    21: Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem;
    22: Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.

    John Chapter 5

    8: Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
    9: And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
    10: The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
    11: He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
    12: Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
    13: And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
    14: Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
    15: The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
    16: And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
    17: But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
    18: Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    Jesus was Lord of the sabbath, and thus was able to set aside the command for the man not to carry his bed (which did brake the sabbath.) The comments at the end of verse 18 "because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." are I believe John's words and not just a recording of the opinion of the Jews. Thus John under inspiration states that Christ's claim that God was his Father was a claim to equality.

  • Hamas
    Hamas

    Nah Hooberus, this ain't doctrine man.

    Maybe for you, and a few others, but certainly not for me.

    But whatever you believe man, its all good.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    2 Timothy Chapter 3

    16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    The Son of the Father is equal to God. But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:17-18

    Hmmm....

    My Lord also said, "You shall do works GREATER than these." Based on that statement, I would be obliged to say that if what you posted above it TRUE... then, by means of LOGIC, such ones, the disciples, were then GREATER than God... and GREATER than Christ... by means of doing works GREATER than those. Yes?

    Ahhhh, dear Hooberus... hear this: we, too, "work". The things my Lord did... from healing, to forgiving sins... to resurrecting the dead who died again... his disciples did then and some still do today. And yet, not one of them... or of us... are GREATER than either God... or Christ. Your logic, then, fails.

    Dear ones... please... PLEASE... STOP letting yourselves be MISGUIDED... by WORDS. You do not NEED to follow words. Rather, you need only follow... THE WORD... CHRIST... the FINE Shepherd who only wants to lead you... into ALL truth. If you would condescend to seek the wisdom of THAT One... and not your own... if you would HUMBLE yourselves so as to find your delight in THAT One... you would... in THAT case... KNOW the Truth. And by means of such knowledge... you would... know GOD... and you would know the Truth... and you would... be SET FREE.

    John 8:32, 36; 17:3

    It is not complicated, dear ones. It is not rocket science... it is not a mystery. It is as simple... as A-B-C. And all you need DO... is become... "like little children." Little children... do not lean... upon their OWN understanding. They do not try to solve the mysteries of the universe by relying on their own understanding. Rather, they ask their FATHER... and by means of their own innocence, put FAITH... in what they are told by such one.

    I say to... BECOME LIKE LITTLE CHILDREN.

    Hear... please... and get the SENSE of it.

    I bid you peace.

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Jesus' claim to be the Son of God was a claim to the nature of God. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. John 10:30-33

    Why do some of you take a small part... take it out of context... and try to make an entire "religion" on it? Why do you not quote the ENTIRETY of what he said about he and the Father... being ONE:

    "I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; in order that they may ALL... be ONE... just as YOU, Father... are in union... with ME... and I... am in union... with YOU... that THEY... may also be in union... WITH US. Also, I have given them the glory that YOU... have given ME... in order that THEY... may be ONE... just as WE... are ONE. I... in union with THEM... and YOU... in union with ME... in order that THEY... may be perfected... INTO ONE... that the world may have the knowledge that YOU... sent ME... forth... and that YOU... loved THEM... JUST as you loved... ME."

    John 17:20-23; John 6:56

    I would exhort you to read the entire Chapter 17... and hear... so as to get the SENSE of it.

    Again, I bid you peace.

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • Hamas
    Hamas

    Miscontrued scriptures make even the Dubs look good.

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