The fraud that is the 70 year desolation
As we know being former JWs that we were taught that Jerusalem was destroyed then 70 years it would be desolate. Well this isn't about Jerusalem and the 607/ 587 argument. This is about the whole subject of the 70 years desolation being a huge Bible fraud.
First let's start with Jerimiah 29:10 in this verse it says the desolation was for Babylon not Jerusalem, what wait a minute. But then it get even better turn to Isaiah chapter 23 where it's taking about the coming destruction of the city of Tyre it says in the chapter it to would be part of this 70 year desolation, this is what we've been led to believe any way. That Nebuchadnezzar was going to destroy Tyre right with Jerusalem and they'll be gone 70 years. But wait in verse 13 it says that Babylon is no more. Say what, what the hell? So who's going to destroy Tyre if Babylon according to these chapters is destroyed already. What the hell is going on, this is nothing I've read or been taught?
So lets review Jerimiah writtings seem to indicate that the Jews were going back to Babylon but it says the 70 years of desolation was for Babylon and in Isaiah it says that the city of Tyre would also be destroyed and desolate for 70 years but not by Babylon because it's no more. So what's going on? Well let's see what history says really happen. An Assyrian king Sennacherib got fed up with the Babylonians so he march down to Babylon moved the people out and destroyed the city in 693 BC. He then put a 70 year curse on the city. It was also he that had besieged Tyre but was unable to completely destroy the city. After he died his ruling son reversed the curse by using his priest to invert the number to say 11 years instead of 70. Babylons cures was no more and the city rebuilt.
So the 70 years of desolation for Tyre and Babylon never happened and neither did it for Jerusalem in fact it's pretty obvious that the Bible writers stole the 70 year curse idea or maybe these writtings were redacted and the names of the Assyrians were replaced with that of Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians. The whole thing is a fraud and it can be confirmed in Ezekiel. Like Isaiah and Jerimiah, Ezekiel seems to be prophecying against Tyre at like 124 years of age but by chapter 29 he's or the writer is saying the Babylonians are going to be given Egypt as spoils since things didn't go to well at Tyre, meaning the prophecies about Babylon destroying Tyre did come to completion. Ezekiel goes on to prophecy that the Babylonians would destroy Egypt the land would become desolate for 40 years , the Nile would dry up and not even an animal would be there. Well this didn't happen either. Babylons attempt to invade had limited success and in the end it failed.
In review the 70 year desolation was clearly a Assyrian decree and it didn't happen! 607 doesn't matter 587 doesn't matter none of it matters because it all one big fat fraud and all three prophets Isaiah, Jerimiah, and Ezekiel were all false prophets!
Meant to say Ezekiel was about 14 years of age when he spoke these prophecies not 124. 14 year old boy making prophecies for god. Pretty ridiculous if I don't say so myself.
.... ' a huge Bible fraud ' ....
Isn't that one of those Oxymoron thingies ... ?
"Bible truth" would be the oxymoron..............
thanks Half banana, ...that makes more sense.
There was no period of utter desolation, even the area around Jerusalem was still occupied after King Neb had done his worst, he did not empty the land.
The whole JW edifice is built upon no facts whatsoever, and worse, upon a total lack of ability to read the Bible itself, and what it actually says !
Thank you Crazyguy for starting this Thread, and for your O.P.
Any JW reading this info., and capable of rational thought, must be alerted to the fact that their faith has no foundation whatsoever.
You said: First let's start with Jerimiah 29:10 in this verse it says the desolation was for Babylon not Jerusalem, what wait a minute. But then it get even better turn to Isaiah chapter 23 where it's taking about the coming destruction of the city of Tyre it says in the chapter it to would be part of this 70 year desolation, this is what we've been led to believe any way. That Nebuchadnezzar was going to destroy Tyre right with Jerusalem and they'll be gone 70 years. But wait in verse 13 it says that Babylon is no more. Say what, what the hell? So who's going to destroy Tyre if Babylon according to these chapters is destroyed already. What the hell is going on, this is nothing I've read or been taught?
Well, here is where you go wrong with Tyre. The destruction of the entire land of Israel took time, more than a year. The Bible specifically says, though, that Jerusalem would be the first to taste the bitter cup of Nebuchadnezzar before the other nations did.
Jeremiah 25:28 " ‘This is what Jehovah of armies says: “You must drink it! 29 For look! if I am bringing calamity first on the city that bears my name, should you go unpunished?”’
According to Josephus, a 13-year siege of Tyre began in year 7 of Nebuchadnezzar II, and thus Tyre actually fell in year 20, a year after the fall of Jerusalem in year 19. So where does the 70 years come in? The answer is when the entire land was completely desolated. Yes, Jerusalem was destroyed in year 19 and Tyre in year 20, but that didn't mean all the people were deported. Usually, Babylon left a few of the poor people behind. So the land was sparsely populated up until the last campaign of Nebuchadenzzar II in year 23. That is the year of the last deportation of everybody out of the entire land, both the northern and southern kingdoms. That also included those who had ran down to Egypt who did go back to Judah for a short while that same year.
We know from the Babylonian Chronicle, as well as the Bible that the deportations of the people occurred usually on the very last day of the year, the beginning of spring. The war campaigns took place in the summer and fall usually, then after the captives wintered, they made that 5-month trek to Babylon at the beginning of spring. So Nebuchadnezzar II descended into the land in his 23rd year and down into Egypt and killed off most of the Jews that were down there, then deported them back to Babylon, likely stopping off in Judea for the winter. Thus even for Tyre, the 70 years of total desolation wouldn't have begun until the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar iI.
Thus the most important Biblical reference as far as when the actual 70 years begins is Jeremiah 44;14 and 28, two scriptures the WTS totally ignore and contradict:
Jeremiah 44:14 "And the remnant of Judah who have gone to reside in the land of Egypt will not escape or survive to return to the land of Judah. They will long to return and dwell there, but they will not return, except for a few escapees.’”
Jeremiah 44:28 "Only a few will escape the sword and return from the land of Egypt to the land of Judah. Then all the remnant of Judah who came to the land of Egypt to reside there will know whose word has come true, mine or theirs!”’”
So just to get the chronology right. The actual destruction of a city didn't necessarily mean all the people were deported and that place was completely desolated. The official 70 years of desolation began after Nebuchadnezzar II's last campaign into the region in year 23, when he deported the last remaining people in the entire land, including from Tyre. Thus the LAND being totally desolated is when the 70 years began. So here's a timeline for you to check out:
Year 19 Fall of Jerusalem
Year 20 Fall of Tyre, assassination of Gedeliah. Remnant flees down to Egypt and refuse to return.
Year 23 Nebuchadnezzar II invades the region goes down into Egypt and kills off the majority of the Jews there, transporting a small remnant back through Judea where they likely remained until the very last day of the year, after which they were deported to Babylon. This began the 70-year desolation of the land that ended when the "royalty of Persia" began to rule. That is, not when Darius the Mede began to rule. Darius the Mede ruled for six full years before Cyrus became king at Babylon and began a new royal rulership over Persia. That's when Cyrus began to count his 1st year, 6 years after the rule of Darius the Mede.
Now you call for "fraud." Well, it's up to you to say this is fraud on someone's part, but who? The secular historians or the Jewish historians? Josephus clearly dates the 70 years from the last deportation, when the people were deported off the land. That conflicts with the Babylonian records. Per the Babylonian records, there is only a 44-year period from year 23 to the 1st of Cyrus. Here is Josephus' statement:
Antiquities 11:1.1: "IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus (1) which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity."
The people were finally removed out of the land in year 23, that is when the 70 years begin. But that conflicts with the Babylonian records, right? Problem is, the Babylonian records were "copied" over during the Persian Period. The Babylonian Chronicle actually states it was a "copy" made in year 22 of Darius. So it is not a conflict between Josephus and the Bible and the Babylonian records, but with the revised records that were revised during the Persian Period. So who is putting on a "fraud" here? It's the Persians, not the Jews.
So to help you out a little, the Neo-Babylonian Period is 26 years shorter than what the Bible and Josephus claim compared to the revised secular records; but the Persian Period is some 82 years too long. Martin Anstey in his "Romance of Bible Chronology" noted that the 1st of Cyrus, per the Bible, should be dated to 455 BCE and not 537 BCE. That means there are some 82 fake Persian years added to the timeline. He did not delineate where those fake years were. But that is the issue here, whether or not the Persian Period was expanded 82 years, which included removing some 26 years from the Neo-Babylonian records?
Of course, at this point we know precisely what happened and it is very easy to reduce the Persian Period correctly by 82 years! When the timeline is corrected, indeed the 1st of Cyrus occurs in 455 BCE and the 70 years between year 23 and the 1st of Cyrus are restored.
Now the big elephant in the room is why haven't scholars or the WTS known about this? The answer is: politics! Jewish historians have always claimed the Persian Period was too long and they never lost track of the original dating, but they do so through a cryptic timeline. For instance, the rabbinical date for the 6th of Darius is 532 BCE, a completely ridiculous date for the 6th of Darius!! That is otherwise the 7th of Artaxerxes III!! But is this a cryptic date? The return in the revised timeline occurs in 537 BCE, some 82 years earlier than 455 BCE. The temple took 21 years to complete and thus is dated to 516 BCE (537-21=516 BCE). If we date the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE the temple would have been completed in 434 BCE (455-21=434 BCE). This is where the fun comes in. You see, 434 BCE is exactly 82 years earlier than 452 BCE (434-82=452 BCE)!! This suggests/confirms not only that 452 BCE is a cryptic date but it confirms the rabbis never lost track of the original dating, that is, that year 6th fell in 434 and that the 1st of Cyrus should be dated to 455 BCE. So why wasn't this timeline changed? You can speculate all you want to but apparently it was not "convenient" to correct the timeline even years later. The revised timeline became the "popular" timeline and then the politically correct timeline and now scholars are trying to make it the "official" timeline and claim the Bible's timeline was revised rather than the Persian timeline.
Even so, it is your choice which record is a fraud. Regardless of that, Josephus and the Bible both date the 70 years from the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II down to the 1st of Cyrus, which is not what JWs are claiming. Those promoting 586 BCE as the fall of Jerusalem probably know quite well that is the wrong date and are promoting their own doctrinal agenda to discredit the Bible. In the meantime, you can use the cryptic rabbinical timeline to recover and confirm the true dating from the Bible. Per the Bible, the 1st of Cyrus should be dated to 455 BCE. That means the Exodus must be dated to 1386 BCE, the rule of Solomon from 910-870 BCE and the rule of David from 950-910 BCE. Anyone, including the WTS, who does not use these dates are not following the Bible's internal timeline. If these dates don't fit archaeology or the popular timeline followed by scholars, then too bad. If the bible is a "fraud" then it's a fraud. Of course, you have to confirm who is really providing the accurate history and chronology. What is most important, though, is knowledge. Knowing what the Jewish secular records show, what the Bible shows and compare that to archaeology. The dates archaeologists are using are based on the pagan dating for events, not the Bible's dating.
Jwdeepthinker , I think you’ve been ready someone’s work that’s jumping over hoops to make his ideas work. First off there’s no record of any Darius the Mede. The book of Daniel is the only mention of this guy and it’s a 2 nd century BC writting where the writer doesn’t know his history. Darius was a Persian and the writer even mentions his lineage but he even gets that wrong. Darius the Persian comes later in history.
Another thing to mention is the Bible said Tyre would never be rebuilt yet it was no only still around for Alexander the Great to destroy it but after he allowed it to be rebuilt.