Historicity of the Prophets

by HowTheBibleWasCreated 7 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • HowTheBibleWasCreated
    HowTheBibleWasCreated

    For many years I have sought to understand how the bible was put together.. thus my name on here. I started out more or less in line with what many schoolars felt in both old and New Testament studies and over the year my notes have flucuated with dates and probable authorship. A few years ago I slid into minimalist or Copenhagen school understanding of the texs but still retained a slight historicity of the prophets. Recently in the last cuple of months however after corsponding with a researcher and much research reading the 17 prophetic OT books. I have sadly rejected all of them as authentic save on line at the end of Haggai where he anoints Zerubabbel. (seems like a Zorastrian offical anointing a governer)

    Isaiah existed and we have his name in archeology but a scan of Isaiah 1-39 reveal purely late concerns from very late periods and Deuteronomist concerns primaritly. (25 -27 are weird but still later. 40-66 are out of the question here)

    I used to figure Jeremiah might have some core preserved in his book due to the fact thjat the book is attributed to Baruch who was a historical figure. But sadly Jeremiah's words are 75% deuteronomist theology which places it very late. The rest is a mass of oracles mattching greek seers or historical narritives from Kings.

    Amos and Hosea are fakes. Amos if we acdept his backstory could never have written and would have been laughed out of Israel had he delivered his saying. Given the proverbs of chapter 7-9 his writing are to be pucshed into a late date also (consistant with Platonian thought) Hosea is obssses with sex. If the guy existed he never wrote one sentance! He was to obsessed with sex! I mean be realistic and read chapter 4 or 5 of Hosea and find a verse that doesn't mention sex! No one from israel would have been proclaiming gloom and doom and then HAVING THEIR WRITING PRESERVED WHEN THE KINGDOM FELL and a lone discipile flees to Judah.

    Sadly Ezekiel must be vomited out also. His theology os that of Leviticus and thus comes not form aan mythical exiled prophet who starts speaking on his 30th birthday and ends on his 50th. Whoever wrote Ezekiel and Leviticus should be ****ing ashamed of themselves anyway for their sick mind! The fact is the prophecy on chapter 38-39 point to a time when Israel is attacked by Selucids when Israel is under peace. Thus a 3rd century date must be assigned. (Some might argue a date after Simon Maccabee but for numerous reasons i've rejected this given that Ezekiel preceeded Daniel to the canon)

    The end of all this is that 12 minor prophets are too convient and looks fishy. The three major prophets are all different theologies and attempt to give a historicity to Genesis-2 Kings.

    Some will object and clam cetain texts such as Exodus 15 or Judges are previous to the exile. I totally agree Ps 45 is a sore thumb as to dating and so bloody obvious as to where it fits that we can all read it and congradulate Ahab and Jezebel lol.

    Sadly however with the exception of the book of Kings very few truely historical details have come down to us fom Judah or Israel. The Hebrew Bible and especially the prophets must be viewed with skeptism.

    When a ruling king (The Ptolomies) asks the Jews to give him a history in 273 BCE I believe it happened. And was quite complete with oracles and songs.

    So when you sit in a Kingdom Hall (like anyone here ever does :P ) remember to bring illiad with you too :)

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    It is my intention to cover a similar area of Study as you have carried out HTBWC, but I have too much on my plate at present, with other projects, plus a Uni. Course.

    I am aware that most of the stuff presented as History by the Hebrew writers is very far from accurate, or what we actually call "History" today, the motive for writing a lot of it was to build a narrative that would serve to help the building of a Nation. Hence a lot of grandiose claims are made, as to the Conquest of Canaan, the size of David's and Solomon's Kingdom etc, easily refuted, along with fanciful stuff, like the Sun standing still. I guess many of the Writings fall in to different genres, but many "historical" details are known to be inaccurate, or doubtful, and contradictions as found between Kings and Chronicles for example do not help !

    One Book that is known to be what you could almost term a fraud, is the Book of Daniel, pretending to be written in the 6th Century BCE and actually written in the mid 2nd Century BCE. The writer gets historical details wrong. It was written as a political Tract for its time, thinly veiled as an Apocalyptic Prophesy from centuries before, but no doubt the intended audience recognised it for what it was.

    As I often maintain, the Bible is over 90% Fiction.

  • smiddy3
    smiddy3

    As has been said before history is written by the victors and maybe just maybe the Israelite's / Jews were wannabe victors.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    As I said in my comment above, the Israelites were not in reality "Victors" in any way, and the "History" parts of their writing are deliberate Fiction to give a glorious past for the Nation to be proud of, a bit like the Nazis re-writing of German "History".

    So yes smiddy, "wannabe" INDEED ! but not writing truth.

  • pistolpete
    pistolpete

    I threw all my bibles a long time ago when it finally dawn on me that studying the events and persons in the bible was like studying Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, Did Harry belong to the house of Gryffindor---or was it the house of Slytherin. Who was the girl that committed adultery, I think it was Hermione.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwfdFCP3KYM

  • HowTheBibleWasCreated
    HowTheBibleWasCreated

    The problem is pistolpete that Harry Potter claims to be fiction. The bible does not in fact Genesis-Kings is wirtten with a style of histories like Herotudus or others.

    Some events in those books happened mostly in 2 Kings. This is confirmed in archeology which is why it is often hard for a post-christian society to reject the myth from the facts. Illiad has a history but is mostly myth, The bible has the same issue. An issue I find facisinaing and a deadly plague to JWs if they ever find it out,

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    I read Thompson's Mythic Past book when it was printed and found a treasure of valuable information. In the end however I felt he may have thrown the baby out with the bathwater in a few instances. (in fact I think he now equivocates on some issues where he was once more assertive.)

    To be sure, the evidence is rather clear that the golden age of a mighty united kingdom (filled with literal gold) ruled by the wisest king on earth was typical etiological myth making. However a cautious use of a criterion of embarrassment leads me to believe many elements are at least ancient, whether myth or history. For example,it would seem unlikely a late author would have given such pagan-y names to completely literary champions. Neither the name 'David' nor 'Solomon' suggest Yahwism. In fact even the name Isra-el harkens a deep past of polytheism. Authors have constraints as well, you can't simply erase the existing traditions to invent another whole cloth. Such a tale would not likely be adopted. Simple reasons like this example suggest the names, if not the stories, were in fact ancient and subsequently collected and redacted by compilers centuries later.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    HTBWC:

    I used to figure Jeremiah might have some core preserved in his book due to the fact thjat the book is attributed to Baruch who was a historical figure. But sadly Jeremiah's words are 75% deuteronomist theology which places it very late. The rest is a mass of oracles mattching greek seers or historical narritives from Kings.

    A core of the work is probably legitimate (at least to the period whether or not actually written by 'Jeremiah'). The Septuagint version suggests the version we now have is in a completely different order to the original, with the oracles against other nations that are now toward the end of the book originally placed between the first and second halves of what is now chapter 25.

    Sadly Ezekiel must be vomited out also. ... The fact is the prophecy on chapter 38-39 point to a time when Israel is attacked by Selucids when Israel is under peace.

    Ezekiel was definitely edited after the original writing (for example, the '390 days' was introduced later, and the Septuagint version implies that it originally referred to a 190 year period, which may correspond to the period from the fall of Israel until the exile referenced in Jeremiah 52:30). However, a core of the work probably was written during the exilic period, as it would otherwise more likely refer to the role Persia would play if it were composed after the Neo-Babylonian period - instead it only relegates Persia to one of the minor nations assisting the hypothetical 'Gog'.

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