This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe (page 29)

sparky1

"There's no official position from Catholic Church about why Jesus was killed." - John_Mann

I think that the Catholic Church would disagree with you on that point.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a4p2.htm

John_Mann

Please provide proof of this historical consensus - there are legends surrounding Jesus' crucifixion.

You can start from here, plenty of references:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

When I ventured into atheism the first thing I did was research about the historicity of Jesus. It was very frustrating realizing his existence and some events of his life is a majority consensus between historians.

John_Mann

I think that the Catholic Church would disagree with you on that point.

Page not found.

John_Mann

Your explanations regarding the loss of free will by the beings in heaven are interesting to say the least.
Where did you get these explanations from? I do not see your explanations the Bible.

Catholic Church.

Jesus was a perfect human, he couldn't die from natural causes.

That's a JW interpretation. Adam and Eve were "perfect" too but they needed the tree of life (to sustain their lives?).

Mary has no original sin too and she probably died too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormition_of_the_Mother_of_God

Every soul is perfect in structure that's why it's immortal.

sparky1

"Page not found." - John_Mann Try it again. I posted the link incorrectly the first time. I have since corrected my mistake.

cofty

I regret that this thread has turned into a platform for the cruelty and inhumanity of Roman Catholic Dogma. Many of the assertions made above are beyond sensible consideration.

John_Mann it is clear that you have no interest and/or ability to the actual topic.

My OP consists of nine simple, common-sense observations.

They concern reasons that make me doubt the existence of the god of Jesus. They assume very little about specific doctrines other than the absolute basics of christian theism - a god of love who made the world and who desires a relationship with his creation.

Theism and reality cannot easily be reconciled. That is a problem for theism.

John_Mann

There's no official position from Catholic Church about why Jesus was killed." - John_Mann

As I said is a complete mystery. Read again the 599 and 601 about his violent death.

Obviously there was another possibility or possibilities because Jesus prayed for the possibility to get another option "take this cup from me".

And the crucifixion made no sense to his disciples.

deegee

John_Mann,

At what point did the beings in heaven stop having free will?

"Some point before the original sin."

The angels still had free will AFTER the original sin was committed:

- Angels had sexual intercourse with humans who gave birth to the Nephilim according to Genesis

- Revelation 12: Satan and his demons were cast down to the earth after losing their battle with Michael, the archangel.

"It was revealed to the angels the humankind will fall and God himself would become a human....."

So God didn't have the foresight with regard to their eating from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil but he did in the case of the tree of life.

Having the foresight to realize what would happen if Adam and Eve remained in the Garden of Eden, God takes the precaution of putting a barrier between them and the Tree of Life.

God being omniscient proactively took steps to ban Adam & Eve from the garden of Eden after they sinned as he foreknew that they would eat from the tree of life and live.

Yet he didn't foreknow that they would eat from the tree with the forbidden fruit and thereby take steps to put the tree with the forbidden fruit out of their reach - only the tree of life was deserving of such a proactive action.

Or is it that God is not omniscient - not even of high intelligence - because he did not realize that without a moral sense, Eve and Adam would probably eat the fruit sooner or later? Any parent who puts a plate of cookies in front of their toddler and tells them not to eat any is aware of what the infant will do.

"........This implied angels to worship the human nature in God. Some of them didn't like that and rebelled."

So God took away their free will because they rebelled?

"When a free-willed being sees God he can't anymore choose (between God and evil)."

So the person has not lost their free will. Now that they have seen God for themselves, they have simply exercised their free will and chosen to no longer do evil things.

"Just like you don't have free-will between choosing a ton of gold or a pin."

I do have free will in this instance - I decided that the ton of gold was worth far far more than the pin and therefore chose the ton of gold instead of the pin.

deegee

John_Mann,

Jesus was a perfect human, he couldn't die from natural causes.
"That's a JW interpretation. Adam and Eve were "perfect" too but they needed the tree of life (to sustain their lives?)."

This therefore means that if Jesus was given access to the "tree of life" he would live forever as a human. It would therefore not be possible for him to die a natural death as long as he had access to the "tree of life".

deegee

John_Mann,

Is the Original Sin committed by Adam & Eve in anyway responsible for the evil and suffering which we see in the world today

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

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