This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty 496 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • deegee
    deegee

    kepler,

    "Why is it possible for us to think and have conscientiousness? Has that aspect of existence been revealed to us by natural science or physical law?"

    Good question.

    What is known so far is that consciousness is impacted/altered when persons experience brain injury or neurological disorders.

    Brain injury and neurological disorders prove that consciousness is fundamentally a physical phenomenon and that the brain mediates and controls all aspects of consciousness; every part of the mind is entirely dependent on and controlled by the brain.

  • deegee
    deegee

    kepler,

    "Where did that come from?
    And given that, is human kind the apex of such evolutionary counter enthropic flowdown?
    Could there be other examples elsewhere?
    Could it flow down from a higher source?
    Can something out there even beyond time and space have a similar sense of conscientiousness but orders of magnitude higher, one that permeates creation and beyond it?
    That we exist at all suggests a greater purpose. If there isn't any readily apparent, then perhaps it is part of the plan to make it so via our minds and hearts."

    What if a cataclysmic destruction did not destroy the dinosaurs en masse? What would be the answers to these questions then?

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    What is known so far is that consciousness is impacted/altered when persons experience brain injury or neurological disorders.
    Brain injury and neurological disorders prove that consciousness is fundamentally a physical phenomenon and that the brain mediates and controls all aspects of consciousness; every part of the mind is entirely dependent on and controlled by the brain.

    Correlation does not imply causality.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

    Just because you can alter the reception of a radio device by altering it does not mean you affect the broadcasting station in anyway.

  • deegee
    deegee

    kepler,

    "That we exist at all suggests a greater purpose. If there isn't any readily apparent, then perhaps it is part of the plan to make it so via our minds and hearts."

    Is there a good reason for God to create us, or any other beings including angels for that matter?

    Here is one answer:

    "Think about this, you are a super powerful being and you want, for some reason, to create a bunch of people who are way less powerful than you, in order to have a relationship with you. But you really want them to love you for who you are and not just because you created them.

    In order to achieve this, you are going to give these people free choice, but you’re also going to create the mind that they’re going to make those free choices with. I would like to examine for a moment God’s motivations for doing what he is supposed to have done in the Christian story.

    All alone outside the universe

    Firstly we must suppose that God wants to create people, that is, some other sentient beings in order to have a relationship with. So why would God want to do this? Apparently God is perfectly self-contained, he doesn’t have any needs and is supposedly perfectly happy just the way that he is. So it is very difficult to see what motivation God would have for actually creating any other creatures.

    Christians will typically respond that God had so much love that he wanted to create some beings in order to share that love and have it reciprocated. But how could God actually have love in the sense of relational love? If God is unchanging then he already has the maximum amount of love that he can have. To change the status of beings within the Godverse (universe doesn’t really apply because the universe didn’t exist at this stage) would be to change the nature of God himself.

    If you are clever you may be thinking that God understood relational love because the godhead consists of three persons (father, son and holy spirit). But again I respond that if God is in fact three persons contained within one godhead, what need does he have for any more love or relationship.

    The godhead should be perfectly happy in its three person love relationship. If God is the perfection of all things then the existence of the three persons of the godhead provides the maximal amount of relational love possible in any possible universe. By attempting to add more creatures it creates an infinity plus one type of situation. There is absolutely no reason to think that a perfectly self-contained godhead would have any desire to create more beings.

    Moving down the chain, and now presuming that for some odd reason this perfect godhead wants to create more beings we arrive at the next point. God had already created sentient beings before humanity. It is clear from Scripture that some time before creating human beings God had already created angels. Ah yes you say, but angels don’t have free will and God wanted to create someone with free will in order to have a relationship with.

    However, it is crystal clear from Scripture that angels do have free will. Lucifer (Satan) was an angel who chose to rebel against God and was kicked out of heaven, apparently along with a great many other angels who also rebelled with him. If you don’t have free will you can’t rebel. So the idea that God had to create human beings in order to have a free will creature to have a relationship with is false.

    My Best Friend the Worm

    So now let’s presume that God was not satisfied with his own company, nor the company of angels, many of whom apparently didn’t seem to like him very much for some reason. What kind of friend do we think God would make for himself? Let’s bring this down to human level so that we can make a comparison. If you wanted to make a friend that you could love, and who could love you back what would you make? Let’s provide some options:

    • a human being
    • a dog
    • a worm

    Now I know that many of you will choose the dog. The dog is loyal, the dog is kind of loving and the dog has a certain kind of intelligence. But at the end of the day the dog is a pet. The dog is not an equal, we can’t converse with it (at least not in any meaningful way) and we can’t have an intelligent relationship with it. Sure, we can have a kind of relationship with it which involves a certain type of love, but it will not be at the same level that we are used to. So if we already experienced perfect love, as God does, what would be the point of this? Of the remaining two options it should hopefully be apparent.

    A relationship with a worm is no relationship at all. It might be mildly entertaining for a few minutes to play with a worm, but there is never a hope of ever having any kind of meaningful relationship with it. You would have to be mentally ill to have a worm as your best friend. Of course the only real answer is another human being. Another human being is the only creature that is on the same level as you intellectually (although this varies from person to person), emotionally (ditto) and physiologically. If we want to have a meaningful relationship as a human being, we seek out the company of other human beings. This is why there is no human to donkey tinder (dating website) - According to the Genesis story, Adam could not find a suitable mate among the animals.

    Now that we have a benchmark, let’s move this concept back to God. If God wanted to have a meaningful relationship with another creature what type of creature should he be aiming to have a relationship with? The answer of course is God, or of the genus God to be more specific. God already had this relationship, as has already been referred to, all persons of the godhead are God. So if God wanted to have an equal, balanced and fair relationship where he could both love and be loved by the other and interact with them on an equal intellectual and emotional level, he would have to create another God.

    So, when God created us what did he create? From his perspective God created a worm, actually less than a worm! As Christians will recite again and again, God is so much higher than we are that we are worth absolutely nothing in comparison. God is everything and we are nothing. We don’t even come close to dog-hood in this equation. We are not even qualified to be the pets of God. So now that we have confirmed that as compared to God we are far less than a worm, probably infinitely less worthy than a worm, what does this say about God? God apparently did not want to have a relationship with an equal but with a minuscule creature who could not even begin to compete with him intellectually, emotionally or in any other way.

    In order to have an equal relationship God would have had to create us as Gods. But God seems threatened by the idea of creating another God or Gods. And this is remarkably odd. If God was creating other versions of himself in order to have a relationship with he could be assured that they were good. They are after all going to be of the genus God and carry all of his inherent traits.

    There is absolutely zero risk for God to create other Gods of the same kind. This of course presumes that he could do that, and that regresses into a never-ending loop of arguments regarding God’s power and nature. But the bottom line is this, why would God create a worm to have a relationship with? It makes no sense! The idea that God would create us makes no sense at all. Did God just want a creature that he could dominate and exert his will over? If this is the case then God is not good. But what other reason could it be? We can’t return anything meaningful on an intellectual or emotional level. God is spirit and we are flesh and bone so we can’t relate in a physiological way. In Scripture God demands our praises, we are commanded to worship him.

    Perhaps this betrays his real motivation, does he just want plebs and sycophants to fawn all over him? Maybe God didn’t create us for relationship at all, perhaps he just wanted to create some creatures inside a universe to see what would happen. But that would make him a Deist God, not a personal God. Or perhaps I am just exposing the flawed reasoning of the humans who made it all up.

    The conclusion seems pretty obvious. There is no good reason for God to create us, or any other beings including angels for that matter. But there is one exception. If God was evil he might want to create us as a subclass that he can manipulate and torment. A people with no ability to affect our own destiny who are entirely subjugated by this intergalactic bully. That is actually the only answer that makes sense if we want to presume that God created us. So the choice is yours, evil God or no God at all."

    https://thoughtcontrol.wordpress.com/various-musings/why-us/

  • deegee
    deegee

    kepler,

    "That we exist at all suggests a greater purpose. If there isn't any readily apparent, then perhaps it is part of the plan to make it so via our minds and hearts."

    What greater purpose could there be for creating humans and placing them on an earth that is hostile to life?

    The Earth, rather than being a paradise oasis of life support in the cosmos, is down right hostile to life! From massive asteroids and meteors crashing into the planet to cycles of heating to mass ice-ages the planet routinely kills of life en masse to
    floods, tropical storms, hurricanes, typhoons, cyclones, monsoons, tsunamis, tornadoes, snow storms/blizzards, dust storms, sand storms, thunderstorms, sink holes, lightening, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, avalanches, landslides, wildfires, being swept out to sea, being attacked/killed by alligators, the stories are endless:

    http://www.sciencealert.com/what-happens-after-being-hit-by-lightning?perpetual=yes&limitstart=1

    http://jamaica-gleaner.com/article/world-news/20160515/64-killed-lightning

    http://jamaica-gleaner.com/article/world-news/20160623/lightning-kills-least-90

    http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/5-year-old-dies-after-being-struck-by-lightning/ar-BBv50hs?ocid=mailsignout

    http://m.jamaicaobserver.com/latestnews/Lightning-strikes-rank-first-cause-of-death-by-natural-phenomena-in-Cuba

    http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/man-killed-by-lightning-while-mowing-lawn-in-tillsonburg-ont/ar-BBv6cTL?ocid=mailsignout

    https://ca.yahoo.com/news/3-women-simultaneously-struck-lightning-093910809.html

    http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/san-andreas-fault-%e2%80%98locked-loaded-and-ready-to-go%e2%80%99-with-big-quake-expert-says/ar-BBsFGUu?li=AAggFp5

    http://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/more-sports/extreme-snowboard-world-champion-killed-in-avalanche/ar-BBrXinG?li=AAggNb9&ocid=mailsignout

    http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/fires-in-bcs-north-forces-hundreds-out/ar-BBrXPEb?li=AAggFp5&ocid=mailsignout

    http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/i%e2%80%99m-just-so-scared-for-my-city-thousands-flee-in-largest-evacuation-in-albertas-history/ar-BBsCban?li=AAggNb9&ocid=mailsignout

    http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/fort-mcmurray-devastated-by-raging-wildfire/ar-BBsD6zo?li=AAggNb9&ocid=mailsignout

    http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/%e2%80%98it-was-raining-ash%e2%80%99-wildfire-sparks-mass-exodus-from-fort-mcmurray/ar-BBsD1C5?li=AAggv0m&ocid=mailsignout

    http://www.worldmapper.org/posters/worldmapper_map252_ver5.pdf

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2370291/Ruth-Rowe-Bruce-Loev-drown-tragically-honeymoon-swept-sea.html

    http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/calif-man-daughter-swept-out-to-sea-from-hawaii-tide-pools/ar-BBuwolB?li=AAggNb9&ocid=mailsignout

    http://www.msn.com/en-ca/video/topvideos/awe-inspiring-sandstorm-hits-northwest-china/vi-BBs0aot

    http://www.msn.com/en-ca/video/weather/mother-natures-dark-side-exposed-in-this-compilation-of-strange-weather/vi-BBs7oJt

    https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/06/15/us/alligator-attacks-child-disney-florida/index.html

    http://amp.space.com/33623-chelyabinsk-meteor-wake-up-call-for-earth.html

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/11/131106-russian-meteor-chelyabinsk-airburst-500-kilotons/

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann

    My worldview even has falsifiability and predictability.

    My scientific guess is we will be able to recreate a brain from scratch very soon.

    Not a biological brain but a virtual brain.

    All we need is the exascale and the complete scanning of the brain in a molecular level.

    There are ongoing projects about this.

    I say that even with a perfect recreation of the brain will not be possible to achieve a consciousness. They will only get a "smart dog" from this empirical experiment. Because brain is physical and consciousness is metaphysical. The brain is not the cause of consciousness, the immortal soul is the source of consciousness.

    Consider this as a prophecy.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exascale_computing

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Brain_Project

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_simulation

  • Giordano
    Giordano

    Without droning on I would agree with Deegee.

    What greater purpose could there be for creating humans and placing them on an earth that is hostile to life?
    The Earth, rather than being a paradise oasis of life support in the cosmos, is down right hostile to life! From massive asteroids and meteors crashing into the planet to cycles of heating to mass ice-ages the planet routinely kills of life en mass to
    floods, tropical storms, hurricanes, typhoons, cyclones, monsoons, tsunamis, tornadoes, snow storms/blizzards, dust storms, sand storms, thunderstorms, sink holes, lightening, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, avalanches, landslides, wildfires, being swept out to sea, being attacked/killed by alligators, the stories are endless:

    The earth is hostile to life. There is no denying that this planet can turn in a moment and wipe out all life as we know it. Compared to the early deaths of so many We are fortunate to get to live for 7 or 8 decades. Use that time wisely as you will not have much more then that.

    The idea, as presented in the bible, that god is a loving god is demonstrably false. There is no love shown for mankind just a series of traps that we must navigate through.

    We are intelligent enough to long and desire more of life but for the present time it still remains out of our control.

    Some of us have a bold outlook for the possibilities, others make up beliefs that are not rooted in reality and waste their lives trying to converse with made up god's who are always silent.

    It's the silence that screams at us that causes us to make stuff up.

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    Blimey, is this thread still going?

    To be honest, I'd like to believe but there isn't a single real shred of evidence that doesn't require submitting to daft mumbo jumbo speech. To believe also appears from this thread, to require the credulity of a goldfish.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Here is the basic core of the disagreement.

    John M believes that faith is a virtue and requests for evidence are anathema to faith.

    He dismisses all challenges to his doctrines by calling them metaphysical and therefore off limits for rational inquiry. Of course like all theists he will take any shred of evidence available.

    Even if we took the ontological argument seriously and accepted John's personal vision as authentic it would not begin to answer any of the challenges of the OP.

    The OP simply observes that in many ways the world doesn't actually look the way Christians pretend it does.

    Proposing other lines of evidence for God doesn't meet the challenge. Attacking atheism as a worldview doesn't either.

    The OP stands unanswered.

  • The Rebel
    The Rebel

    The only answer I can give to the O.P is ....what's the point?

    Personally I am very angry, that these threads go to so many posts and not one straight answer to the O.P was given. That's not to say the O.P can't be answered, but if the O.P can be answered it obviously can't be answered in words.

    So I think this thread is about Rugby players playing a match with Football players, and both sides are playing their game. It's gound hog day.....but the thread has become a competition, and in my opinion, the believers don't have the stuff to back up the challenge of the O.P.

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