This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty 496 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    So is it Jesus' death that erases the guilt of original sin or is it baptism that erases the guilt of original sin?

    Jesus himself instituted baptism. Baptism is called a sacrament or sign. A sign is something that points to something greater than the sign itself. The baptism is our turn to do something in order to sign an agreement with Jesus.

    The sacrifice of Christ it's only effective to those who believe. The baptism is a public and physical demonstration of faith.

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    Why you? Why not everyone else?

    AFAIK I'm not the only one person to have a vision. Not the first and not the last too.

    What greater good does it serve?

    A lot to me.

    How will it make others believe?

    Its purpose was to make me to believe. But maybe it can help others indirectly.

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    Yeah, that's doesn't sound right to me either. It would be like if someone was pardoned for their crimes by a ruler but still had to stay in prison. What's the point of the pardon?

    It's like some murder pardoned for his crime by a ruler and being released from prison. But the act of forgiveness does not erases the death of the victim of murder.

    But the consequences will be erased too. Just not at the same time of forgiveness.

    Why remove just the GUILT and not the CONSEQUENCES SIMULTANEOUSLY?

    Idk. Maybe it's an inevitable thing.

    Are you saying that God rather remove the GUILT for something which we did not do instead of its CONSEQUENCES

    We also inherited the financial status of our parents and we live for some time with their financial status. Even though we have no merit or guilt about it.

    Same thing to our place of birth, language, relatives, etc...

    Same thing to our metaphysical inheritance.

    Of course everything above can be changed (not in an instant) at will some point in life.



  • cofty
    cofty

    Pages and pages of irrational Roman Catholic dogma.

    Believe the same things as John_Mann or spend eternity in hell. In all those pages not one word of evidence has been offered. Nothing but bald assertions based on the writings of church leaders who lived during the most superstitious period of human history.

    These men were the same ones pulling humans apart on the rack for contradicting them. Thank god all their modern-day followers can do is repeat their ravings ad nauseum on an internet forum.

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    John_Mann - With respect, and I don't wish to appear nasty, but -

    Why is it all about you? What makes you so special above others?

    Here's something that is emblazoned on my mind:-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmHDiJHxEic

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne
    Jesus himself instituted baptism

    Wrong. Jesus himself never performed a baptism. His 12 apostles weren't baptized by him. Some of them weren't even baptized by John. But Jesus was indeed baptized by John, who performed baptisms in the same fashion the Essenes had been practising for nearly a century already. The passage of Matthew 28:19, 20 (like many sayings attributed to Jesus in this gospel, also in Luke) is most likely a later adition to justify the practice of baptism by the christians. Actually, one of the most well established events of Jesus's life is also one of the things that caused more embarassments to the early christians: the fact that Jesus was baptized by John, thus being his disciple. THIS was an embarassing fact that the early christian writers had to get very creative in order to make it look otherwise. In turn, around those explanations, a whole new theology was then constructed (erm ... invented)

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    Wrong. Jesus himself never performed a baptism. He was baptized by John, who performed baptisms in the same fashion the Essenes had been practising for nearly a century already. The passage of Matthew 28:19, 20 (like many sayings attributed to Jesus in this gospel, also in Luke) is most likely a later adition to justify the practice of baptism by the christians. Actually, one of the most well established events of Jesus's life is also one of the things that caused more embarassments to the early christians: the fact that Jesus was baptized by John, thus being his disciple. THIS was an embarassing fact that the early christian writers had to get very creative in order to make it look otherwise. In turn, around those explanations, a whole new theology was then constructed.

    I didn't mean he invented the ritual of baptism. Baptism is a ritual of Hinduism too.

    But he gave a new meaning and function to it.

    The baptism of Jesus (not in the sense it was performed directly by Him) is totally different from the baptism of John.

    Yes, Jesus being baptized by John was not necessary and actually an apparent contradiction. That's why historians are comfortable to accept the historicity of this event. The existence of John is well documented outside the Bible. Actually he was much more popular than Jesus even after the crucifixion.

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    The only reason why Jesus was baptized by John is that Jesus was initially a disciple of John, who later on started his own sect of radical, messianic judaism. That's the simple truth that the early christian writers attempted to obfuscate when they wrote the gospels. Because that would undermine the belief that Jesus had been God's anointed envoy.

    The baptism of Jesus (not in the sense it was performed directly by Him) is totally different from the baptism of John.

    Of course, that's the explanation that the later followers of chistianity had to come up with to say that the baptism of Jesus was superior to that of John. This happened in a time when the disciples of John who didn't buy into Jesus' sect were still raising controversy with the Jesus followers, as it is vaguely documented in Acts. The fact that the author of Acts even mentioned it (only to then tell the story that those had finally converted to christianity) denotes that this controversy was still well alive still many decades after Jesus' death and was a theological problem for the early Christian congregation. That is why (not a coincidence!) only Luke and Matthew tell the story that John Baptist wanted to be sure that Jesus was the messiah (Matthew 11:3; Luke 7:18, 19), to give the impression that even John Baptist accepted Jesus as the messiah. This story is implausible and probably never took place, and that's why Mark (the earliest gospel) and John don't mention it.

    Still, if baptism is an essential sacrament for salvation, why weren't the apostles baptized by Jesus?

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    1. So why did you initially deny that your vision was from God?

    When you said "received by God himself" I understood like a pizza boy.

    2. How do you know that your vision is not convincing to anyone else?

    It's convincing to me. Idk about others.

    Have you told anyone else about the specific details/ specific content of your vision?

    Yes.

    You refused to provide the specific details/ specific content of your vision when someone from this forum asked you to share that information.

    I just share this information irl.

    3. What about your vision makes you certain that it was from God via an angel?
    How were you able to tell that your vision was from God via an angel?

    It's a personal axiom (I'd experienced a paranormal event). Just like I accept the several axioms in the scientific method (the entire physical world is understandable to human mind, for instance).

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    If God can give you a vision, then why doesn't God speak to the Catholic Church and tell them which is the correct view? Why has God left the CC floundering and guessing on this matter?

    My experience didn't tell me nothing directly. It was just "there are very convincing paranormal events". About the views of atonement, is a technical issue and maybe there are several reasons to it. A lot of things have several functions. And the views of CC are not excludent.

    5. If God can give you a vision, then why hasn't God appeared to the 40,000 Christian denominations and given all of them the same interpretation of the Bible so that they are all in agreement?

    . For that matter, if God can give you a vision, then why hasn't God appeared to the all of the various religions in the world, explain where they are misinterpreting his wishes, tells them what he really wants, what he really desires from humanity in order to end religious schism, division, confusion and discord?


    According to the WT ​February 2017 par.12, p.26 - "The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible."


    So the GB has admitted that God/the Holy Spirit does not speak to /communicate with them. Yet you claim that God, via an angel, gave you a vision?


    God contacts/communicates with you but not the GB?


    Why would God contact/communicate with you but not the GB?


    Isn't the GB equally seeking God's will and praying to him, so why isn't God answering them, speaking with them, communicating with them, contacting them as he does you?

    I didn't had a vision that can be directly applied to these situations.

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