This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty 496 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty
    cofty

    Sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe. Various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply. I have taken the bait myself in the past.

    I think the correct answer is much more ordinary. If the god of christian theism did exist a lot of simple things would just make more sense.

    The evidence would not show beyond all doubt that the diversity of life rested on millions of years of relentless competition, death and destruction. Life would not have been all but wiped out in mass extinctions at least five times in its history.

    The predominant economy in the natural world would not be parasitic and predatory. The world really would show the loving qualities of its maker without having to ignore the majority of the facts.

    The bible really would contain prophecies that could be verified using objective historical evidence. It wouldn't be necessary to rip verses out of context and interpret ambiguous phrases to try to make details fit post hoc..

    The bible would contain useful information that people could not have known at the time it was written.

    The ethics of scripture would be enlightening and uplifting without exception. It would condemn things like slavery unambiguously and champion the rights and equality of women. It would not advocate moral evils that need to be explained away with appeals to relativism and special pleading.

    Miracles would really happen - even now in the age of CCTV, smart phones and scientific enquiry. It would require stubbornness rather than healthy skepticism to deny them.

    Natural disasters would not kill millions of earth's inhabitants. The planet would not be designed to destroy life.

    Prayers would get answered reliably. Confirmation bias would not be necessary. The prayers of believers would have real and observable power.

    There is so much more detail I could add to this, but in summary it would be more difficult to reject the claims of christianity than to accept them. It is not too much to expect that this should be so.

  • just fine
    just fine

    I agree, if God exists and is all powerful, surely he could make it clear. I pointed out to a Mormon once - so you are telling me God cares whether you drink hot beverages, but he doesn't care about the millions starving to death?

    Its all made up bullshit no matter who is peddling their brand of it.

  • scratchme1010
    scratchme1010

    Interesting thoughts, cofty. I agree, any tweet today is by far more reliable than any bible verse. A god who claims that has such important messages and wants to save as many people from... whatever made up thing they claim we should be saved, wouldn't communicate and perform miracles at the time when humanity was the less developed and naive about everything.

    Thanks for sharing.

  • Saethydd
    Saethydd

    I agree with pretty much all of that, and it's one thing that helped me leave Creationism behind. All of the little details of the world just don't fit with special creation, whereas I can see many examples of small details that fit with evolution.

  • DisArmed
    DisArmed

    A biology professor was questioned by one of his Bible Belt students, "What would it take for you to believe there is a god, him coming down here and kicking you in the ass?" The professor simply replied, "Yep, that would do it." (True story)

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    What would help me believe if he killed off false lying charlatans who commercially exploit the Gospel of his son Jesus Christ for money and power, like the Watchtower Corporation .

    .......... that would help a lot

    ........ Come on Yahweh show your power and justice

  • smiddy
    smiddy

    The predominant economy in the natural world would not be parasitic and predatory. The world really would show the loving qualities of its maker without having to ignore the majority of the facts.

    I agree with your post Cofty especially the above quote.

    I also found it funny that the Creator of the universe ,the ultimate chemist according to the WT/GB would give the ten commandments to Moses on tablets of stone. ? that couldnt ,didnt last ?

    Surely he could have used something more durable ,like an alloy that was far more advanced than the time Moses was living in ? Something that has only been invented in our day or not even been discovered yet..?



  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    cofty, according to the Bible, God is not a wall - He has ears.

    He may not tell me what I want to hear but things are what they are.

    God gives each person individually verifiable evidence in addition to the Bible accounts about God. Enough evidence for each individual to conclude that he exist, that he is a personal God and a lot more. Why doesn't each person SEE the evidence?: spiritual blindness. Remember the GT bookstudy, the things that Jesus did in the misdts of his enemies and others too? "The kingdom of God is in your misdts! -powerful scripture. If that is a fact today, shouldn't there be discernible evidence? Look for the evidence with your heart if you really want it.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Why doesn't each person SEE the evidence?

    Because gods have been created within human imagination creating emotive theory espoused only by hearsay .

    Some people see and feel gods, others see imagination constrained in human ignorance.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel
    Just Fine ยป I agree, if God exists and is all powerful, surely he could make it clear. I pointed out to a Mormon once - so you are telling me God cares whether you drink hot beverages, but he doesn't care about the millions starving to death?

    The problem is, everyone wants to set the policy and make the rules, and that just doesn't happen. For example, you begin your discussion with the Mormon by assuming God cares whether you drink hot beverages, strong drink or smoke cigarettes. (Well, yes, He does, but not even many Mormons know the entire story of the health code known as the Word of Wisdom.)

    When that was given, the Lord said specifically that it was not by "command or constraint," but by a word of Wisdom. Well, the Mormons drank, smoked and hacked their way from Illinois and Missouri all the way to Utah and Idaho. When they got to the great Salt Lake and were instructed to build the Temple (it wasn't the first in Utah, btw), the project took them forty years. Brigham Young got up at one of first conferences and said, we've had this word given to us, not by commandment, and we drank and smoked the whole way out here. I propose we take all the money we spend on this stuff and we put it all towards the Temple fund. The people thought it over, it sounded good to them, so they voted what the heck.

    So they did it. Fast forward forty years. The Temple was built, the church noticed its alcoholism and other health problems had vanished, no spitoons, no bars -- so we put it up for a vote to make it permanent and binding and it passed! So that's how it became binding. It was voluntary and made a covenant.

    So historically it wasn't a huge doctrine.

    As for those starving to death, dying from genocide and so forth, as unfortunate as it is, God is under certain obligations pertaining to our mortality. There are arguably good reasons He doesn't prove His existence and it's all been revealed, but morality and religion are all dispensed on God's terms and it all has to do with balance, free agency and obedience. It also has to do with a master plan we all agreed to before coming here, according to our religion. Suffice it to say that happiness and prosperity is all tied to obedience.

    Atheists approach man's existence as an enemy to God, accusing Him of murder and hypocrisy. Mormons and most other Christians approach Jehovah's Witnesses as retrograde religionists. On a board of former JWs, the issue is atheism versus the governing body. One can be true, but not others. Many religions revere the name Jehovah, but not the claims, name or theology of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

    "Well, they're all ridiculous!" atheists say, and on the surface I can understand that. But not from a human dignity standpoint. The blood transfusion issue, and especially shunning. But again, it's JW or nothing for most. And for atheists, God is a murderer. He advocates slavery and injustice. It's a somewhat inconsistent stance because, according to them, we're all going to end up dead anyway; yet God ultimately saves us from that in most religions.

    ...

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